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| What do you think of this tenuki? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9495 |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | What do you think of this tenuki? |
Here's a position from a game I (white) am playing on OGS (It's endgame now and I'm comfortably ahead so we can discuss the opening). My opponent invaded at the marked point and I couldn't find a good answer so played tenuki. Stated like that it seems fairly sensible ("if you don't know what to do, tenuki"), but for me to tenuki an invasion like that felt rather strange as it allows black to separate my positions. However, I didn't like the results of me playing what felt like the most natural move of attach on top (a) to connect as then black will live with points inside my moyo and I get a wall that didn't seem useful with his strong ponnuki group on the left. (h5 instead of h4 is similar idea, and by not contacting black tries to not give him momentum to settle, but seemed similarly bad). He might even live in sente. I didn't mind my groups getting cut that much as the corner group to the left is alive (and I didn't want to lose the corner points I had invested in (yeah I know they aren't 100% my points yet)) and although the one to the right could get a bit weak it can play moves like n6 to help it which also have aims at black's right side. So I played the big move at b which developed my top moyo and reduced the potential of his left side thickness. I had in fact expected black to approach here instead of invading (and was planning to attach and crosscut if he hanes to try to overconcentrate him on the left and solidify my corner and top side) as I wasn't planning on spending a move to fix that invasion point any time soon. So my thinking was that black's invasion was perhaps too early, and my tenuki was a good answer, although it felt a bit strange. What do you think? Here's how the game continued. Black cut my groups and lived in gote, whilst I kept the corner and got the n6 jump. We could just leave the discussion there, but I think to judge the result you really need to carry on. Something I thought about here was his exchange of j6 for n6 probably turned out to be bad given that he ended up living in gote on the side anyway. Before that I had been somewhat afraid of the m5 peep (though that weakens his right side, so perhaps only do that as kikashi before defending with q6 or q7) and then crude but perhaps effective m4 push and cut; my p4 p2 combo was aimed at giving ways to deal with that. I now had sente for another tenuki. Closing the corner at e17 was one idea, but I thought the lower area was more urgent as my n6 jump aimed at invading the right. If I played e17 black would probably defend the lower right area which would simultaneously put some pressure on my n6 group which wasn't actually settled yet. If I invade the right immediately it poses black a difficult question: does he separate my invasion from n6 which would mean it could live comfortably on the right side and he loses a lot of points there for an attack of questionable value on my n6 group, or does he keep some of his side points but let me connect my groups which also nicely settles them? He chose the later. (The alternating of moves between r4 area and r7 area was rather amusing and might seem like I am changing my mind about what to do, but it seemed like the correct technique to me). (Btw I think black's 63 and 65 were mistakes as they meant I could easily take sente) So in the end I had reduced black's lower right corner down to 4 points and settled my n6 group for now by shoving through his side. In exchange he got a wall to grow his upper right side (r12 invasion nigh on impossible now) and centre, but I had sente to reduce it at n14. I felt this development went smoothly for me. Here's the full game so far: So, what do you think of the tenuki and subsequent strategy based on it? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
I think that your play is probably right.  I don't like leaving the invasion alone with so many weaknesses, but I do think that the invasion was premature. You got the last big play of the opening.  is a thought, but I think that your enclosure on the left side is better. -  is also possible, but 1) I think that Black will tenuki after , and 2) the other plays are better.
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
I'm squirming at the thought of leaving the group on the bottom right to fend for itself, since Black is so thick in that corner. Maybe k4 should have been k3 earlier? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Shaddy wrote: I'm squirming at the thought of leaving the group on the bottom right to fend for itself, since Black is so thick in that corner. Maybe k4 should have been k3 earlier? I can understand that feeling, though I felt only a little unease rather than squirming. How would you play differently as black to turn that squirming feeling into an advantageous position? If I want to increase the connectedness of the n4 k4 stones to my corner (but don't like the attach on top to connect when black invades; as an aside if black really wants to split me he could invade high at h4 as attaching and giving a ponnuki to connect is usually pretty sucky in such a shape) I think playing f4 low at f3 is the way to do it, either initially in answer to the approach, or after the pincer and black's jump. This way there is still an invasion point at h3, but h4 feels a nicer answer as I'm not going to lose so much of the lower left corner with f3 low. Doing some pattern search of GoGoD/kombilo, k4 is played in 33 of 33 games . After the black approach (most popular continuation with 12 hits) white plays f3 5 times and the one space low pincer 5 times (and high f4 only once). After the pincer black always takes the corner so we don't have any pro guidance about f4 vs f3 in my game, though I'm quite willing to accept f3 is better, particularly given my plan not to play the joseki where I save c8 but rather go for the corner territory. My lower side shape did have so few real points with all the holes in it (b4/c3, h3, n2, and maybe things like l3).
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
I was just about to jump in here with this suggestion when I saw that you had already posted it. Like you said, dealing with black's future moves seems quite a bit nicer from this position than from  at f4.
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
A bit more kombilo-ing... Looking at just the white shape on the lower side after the pincer and jump (so black can have shimari at q5 instead of kosumi, and also low chinese instead of high) turns up 6 games. All have the more common q5 shimari. There are 2 from the 90s which have the high chinese and white plays f4 high; 4 from the 2000s with the low chinese and white plays f3 low. Interesting...  I did play n4 high to counter the influence of his high chinese (against low chinese I do n3 or n4 depending on mood). Can we say f4 high has a similar idea? I thought both were ok at the time, but chose high, partly because I like the cool follow-up tesuji at e7 and if I get that before black invades his invasion is quite a bit harder. Of course it's probably wishful thinking on my part to think I'll have a good time to play it before he has a good time to invade. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
As Black, I'd have tried to seal off the corner before White could get into it. I'd be thick on left and right sides, so my group would have an easy time running, while White would not have it so easy |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Uberdude wrote: I would play the sleve tesuji, reaching for my drink and knocking the F4 stone out of position, and replacing at F3 where it belongs. Or maybe even E3. But it definitely should not be high. His C7 group neutralizes any influence that your corner may have, so I would make the best of the situation and use the corner group for territory. Ohh, wait...this is OGS, isn't it? That means no sleve tesujis. In that case, you're going to have to avoid such situations from the beginning. I'm not sure how to do that. But, I do know that if the position were as below, and it was my move as white, I would not play F4. Also, if the position were like this one below, I would not play N4. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Shaddy wrote: As Black, I'd have tried to seal off the corner before White could get into it. I'd be thick on left and right sides, so my group would have an easy time running, while White would not have it so easy Like so? I'd probably play k2 now which both removes black's base and helps build mine (o3 next would settle nicely and have some future aims at the corner or at least nice sente yose at q2), but yes I agree black's group isn't so weak and this way of playing makes j6 more efficient. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Also, if the position were like this one below, I would not play N4. Tewari #1 makes sense to me, but #2 seems rather dubious as in this position black wouldn't play p4 either. If both players are making strange moves in your tewari analysis it's hard to come to a correct conclusion. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Upon looking at the kifu, I think things went wrong on move 8: With 7, he has made an unusual move, with the positive benefit of crowding your approach stone, but the negative benefit of leaving the right side more open. IMHO, this would have been the time to tenuki. If he wants to distort his corner, let him. Call your move at N4 a kikari which got a good result, and leave it as a light stone. Then either take a big point elsewhere, or invade on the right before he has a chance to reinforce. |
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| Author: | oren [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: With 7, he has made an unusual move, with the positive benefit of crowding your approach stone, but the negative benefit of leaving the right side more open. 7 isn't very unusual and 8 is the most common professional response (>90%). later edit... After reading Dusk Eagle's reply, I realized I set up a low Chinese position instead of high. So saying 7 isn't very unusual is much more true... it's the most common response and 8 is the only response... |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Upon looking at the kifu, I think things went wrong on move 8: With 7, he has made an unusual move, with the positive benefit of crowding your approach stone, but the negative benefit of leaving the right side more open. IMHO, this would have been the time to tenuki. If he wants to distort his corner, let him. Call your move at N4 a kikari which got a good result, and leave it as a light stone. Then either take a big point elsewhere, or invade on the right before he has a chance to reinforce. I don't agree with that, I think  is a good move. It's important to reinforce the stone you just played, and also set up a bit of a framework for yourself. If you just treat N4 as a kikashi and ignore it, then you miss the fact that it hurts your ability to enter into the right side later.I just checked my GoGoD database and  is the most common move in this position, occurring 33 times ('b' being played 30 times instead). After , is played in all 33 games. So while I can't say other moves aren't feasible, I certainly wouldn't say there's anything wrong with .
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
oren wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: With 7, he has made an unusual move, with the positive benefit of crowding your approach stone, but the negative benefit of leaving the right side more open. 7 *according to my few years old GoGoD. 
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| Author: | oren [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Uberdude wrote: oren wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: With 7, he has made an unusual move, with the positive benefit of crowding your approach stone, but the negative benefit of leaving the right side more open. 7 *according to my few years old GoGoD. Yeah, you caught this before my edit. I rarely see the high Chinese and went on autopilot.
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
OK, I won't argue with the pros you guys invoked. Move 8 is good. ( It just feels wrong to me. ) In that case, where did it go wrong? How did we get to a position only 23 moves into the game, in which most everybody agrees that 23 is good, but nobody really knows how to answer it? Should white have played a joseki in the lower left that gives him the outside? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: In that case, where did it go wrong? How did we get to a position only 23 moves into the game, in which most everybody agrees that 23 is good, but nobody really knows how to answer it? We agree the invasion is good? I and Bill Spight think it's too early, and that thus the best way to answer it is to not answer it. But if we accept there is a problem in my position (which I think there is, just black exploited it too early) then I think playing move 12 low at f3 instead of high at f4 as I, Dusk Eagle and your tewari #1 suggest is probably the way to fix it. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
This is a busy day, and I'm posting without reading. Apologies to all. |
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| Author: | emerus [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/29261 This is a relevant game record. The framework on the right is different and that's not a small difference. Locally, what I gather is that h3 was probably too soon and too passive. I think white should still respond to it at f3 and keep her stones connected and healthy. So move 24, white descends at F3, then black tenuki. It seems like white has fixed the aji in his corner and benefits from blacks premature invasion. I think it's hard to see the merit of allowing black h5 until he allows white to get n6. Black 29 at n6 himself? After probing white at e3, I think it's a possibility. I don't see a positive attack for white in this situation. A and B are both huge in terms of white's territory and make it easy for black to survive. IMO. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this tenuki? |
emerus wrote: http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/29261 This is a relevant game record. The framework on the right is different and that's not a small difference. Locally, what I gather is that h3 was probably too soon and too passive. Thanks! Too new for my GoGoD. The right and top sides are a bit different, but notwithstanding that I think Yoda playing c14 before h3 can teach us that approaching there is bigger than invading. emerus wrote: I think white should still respond to it at f3 and keep her stones connected and healthy. Don't quite understand this though: f3 doesn't keep white connected as black can later jump and split at h5. emerus wrote: So move 24, white descends at F3, then black tenuki. It seems like white has fixed the aji in his corner and benefits from blacks premature invasion. I disagree this exchange helps white: I think it is good for black. I think there is a good tewari argument for this: imagine white plays f4 at f3 initially (a perfectly good move, maybe even a better move) and then we have the same sequence. Then if black invades at h3 (a good move locally) white will certainly not answer at the bizarre f4, but h4 (or something else sensible). emerus wrote: I think it's hard to see the merit of allowing black h5 until he allows white to get n6. allowing -> playing, until -> if? Then yes I agree. emerus wrote: Black 29 at n6 himself? After probing white at e3, I think it's a possibility. I don't see a positive attack for white in this situation. Interesting idea, it does seem to be a key point doesn't it. It's strange, in the game I expected black 31 at j6 as he played. Despite being many thousands of miles apart, we thought the same things about our game whilst observers here had some different ideas (of course by posting as a problem here people maybe think more). White at j6 after black 31 at n6 instead isn't really a good seal, and black can still just live inside like the game. Looking at the pro game, the k3 block and then g5 counter atari is a nice tesuji to stop black's encroachment on the lower side. If white just plays k3 as the j4 solid connection then black's slide to l2 is rather painful I thought. But in my game black hadn't yet made the e3 e4 exchange so if I played the h4 attach in answer to the invasion then the k3 and g5 technique has a problem as shown below. Could it be the e3 peep is aji keshi because of this? I don't presume to say Yoda Norimoto 9p made a mistake (and I know in this joseki Go Seigen has recommended the peep immediately after the c5 attachment as then white can't resist with block to either side or else black plays b5 hane, b4 block, d5 atari; but if you peep after completing the joseki maybe white can choose another answer) but this downside of the early peep does seem quite relevant in this particular position with k4 and the expected invasion at h3 later. Now white takes the ko and black can either e4 to cut through white (though as white gets super thick to the right maybe it's not so bad for him, or fight the ko if he has threats. Then if white connects at g6 after recapture breaking through at e4 works better. |
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