Is 51 a normal move? Everything seemed to go downhill for you after that. Before that it seemed pretty even to me.
Of course you're probably a bit stronger than me and white definitely is, so this may not be much help
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| tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=961 |
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| Author: | Jonas [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Hey guys, this is the forth game of the tournament I attended this weekend. I hold the black stones against Lisa (3d), who is probably one of the strongest female go players here in germany. I think the fuseki went well for me but she outread me on the right side after my invasion. Knowing that I'm behind I made I very crucual reading error (I hallucinated a Ko) in the end and resigned the game. I'd be glad to get some reviews / comments. All at all I played 2,5 - 2,5 at this tournament (my first jigo ever ^_^). This was the first time I started as a Shodan so I'm quiet comfortable with the result. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Is 51 a normal move? Everything seemed to go downhill for you after that. Before that it seemed pretty even to me. Of course you're probably a bit stronger than me and white definitely is, so this may not be much help
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
I think that G15 is a pretty important point that Black should have played directly after H16. I do not like S15 and the following moves; I would recommend just S16 instead. The problem is that White gets much thicker in the game, and you could get first hand experience what that means during the invasion on the right. H3 is the wrong direction, since the black group on the lower side is stable enough (having extensions in both directions). Black should instead jump to E6; this and the similar point in the upper right (which you forced White to take) were approximately miai. |
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| Author: | Jonas [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Yep I should have played q8 instead of the keima (move 51) but I wasnt able to read it out corecctly and thought I'd die there (which is not true I think now)  ~ Hmmm I was very proud of H3, it looks flat but on the other hand this looks like a very good point for white so is it really that "wrong"? |
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| Author: | gaius [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
How about R12 instead of P9? White's kosumi is usually quite strong for attacking but easy to dodge if you play a bit lighter. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
you might disagree...but... 31 is the start of your downfall. your territory is so wide..it is too easy to invade. your cap is an overplay but you didnt have much choice because there isnt any way to attack that stone. such cap will not work on 3D. i think i rather tenuki than the cap. |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
I partly disagree with Magicwand (surprise!). I get the impression (again) that Magicwand counts any invadable moyo as 0 points (which would be wrong). Just from the shape on the left side,  is the most natural move conceivable. The problem is that Black settled the shape on the right side so much that the "equivalent" invasion on the right has gotten more difficult, and also that he got only after White  and thus without further threat into the corner. Therefore, it might be advisable to try a more territorial approach in this situation; perhaps one could settle with B5.Just as a side note: if  - - had been played in reverse order, H3 would be quite strange, as Black would rather extend his moyo than the stable, low group on the bottom.Anyway, the result of the white invasion on the left was not too bad for Black, as White effectively only crawled on the second line. Black might be a bit behind, but the game is far from over. However, the invasion on the right went really bad. I think that Black should have started from Q9, keeping the flexibility to settle for some central influence to threaten a nice central moyo together with the stones on the left. H3 at least means that Black can also invade the lower right corner. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
i had a feeling someone will disagree another point..26 is first move that i really didnt like. solidifying the corner is big but you also solidify white and it's gote. i am sure you have better move than 26. i am curious how other stronger player assess my point on move 31. i am sure i would for one not play that move if i was black. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Black 113: you push on a link, but then you don't cut. So you gain nothing from the exchange, lose a liberty, and force white to connect solidly what was virtually connected before. You lose the possibility of a peep, which might have been useful a few moves down the road. Unless you had some other purpose I didn't see? Also with Harlequin that S15 feels like the wrong move. Most of the rest was over my head 
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| Author: | Jonas [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Well I knew that I was behind and needed to nullify whites upper side to have a chance. I pushed at 113 to create a cut and use it with my next moves... well as you have seen in the end I did a crucial reading mistake, but I don't know if I could have done any better to reduce white. I was able to ask FJ (german 6d) about the invasion on the right side, here are his thoughts: First he suggested to simply dont play the invasion right know but to ensure territory on the top with Black 1 and forces white to destory the aji with the 2-3 exchange. When Black really wants to do something on the right side he can try to make sabaki with the attachment here, but Black needs to read some stuff here, we didnt discussed this any further: He said I handled the invasion wrong, sometimes the most stupid and obvious move is the right one. With the empty triangle black looks alive, if white desperately attacks Black, he will abandon the invasion stones and take the other three stones instead: |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Numsgil, if you read his comment that he thought there was a ko and looked at the sequence after, you'd see that the push was played at the latest possible time. Later on when the fight started white might not have chosen to block directly. Of course, since the ko didn't exist that was all for naught, but given the reading this pushing was necessary. I don't think we can really criticise the moves of players more than 6 stones stronger with such definiteness anyways, and this is something I noticed from your Malkovich against Topazg as well. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Aphelion wrote: I don't think we can really criticise the moves of players more than 6 stones stronger with such definiteness anyways, and this is something I noticed from your Malkovich against Topazg as well. Obviously take everything I say with a grain of salt. My main point when I say things like this is that there's a basic principle that seems to be violated (ie: something in one of my books), and does the player have strong reasoning for doing so (eg: some reading for why it works)? I could preface everything with "I'm a newb so this move here doesn't seem to make sense since..." but that gets old pretty quick, and I consider it implied given my strength.
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| Author: | Jonas [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Hmmm is there a tool available to convert a game at a certain move into forum-compatible diagram form? |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Yes, if you look in the stickied thread on how to make diagrams I made a post with the link not long ago. http://senseis.xmp.net/tools/sgf2diagram.php |
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| Author: | mitsun [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
The first move I question is B move 19 at O17. After the upper left corner joseki, the upper side does not have much room left for expansion, so playing in this area looks relatively small. There are larger places to play along the wide open right side, for example an approach move at R6. Or B could immediately play E6 to expand the left side moyo. MagicWand, there are quite a few professional games in which B plays E6 very early in this opening, even before approaching the lower right corner. I think it was still worth a full move when B played it later in this game. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
mitsun wrote: MagicWand, there are quite a few professional games in which B plays E6 very early in this opening, even before approaching the lower right corner. I think it was still worth a full move when B played it later in this game. just because few professionals experimented with such play doesnt make it right. wait a minute!!! professionals dont play that move. they play S16 instead... that makes difference of sente and gote(not really but followup move). that is why him protecting his corner S15 is wrong..and i wasnt comfortable seeing that move. i am pretty sure you are not going to disagree on that because you are strong enough to see my point. |
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| Author: | Jonas [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
I think you're right, I was afraid that White could take sente after S16 so I played a bit more forcing with S15 to keep sente, but now I think I gave White to much with this exchanges. Ina way it looks like ajikeshi because the invasionspot at R12 is gone after S15. I never even considered to think of Black 19 as a mistake, but after reading your reasoning I think you're right, too. The side looks kind a uninteresting, while the lower right side is not settled at all. But in this situation I like to strenghen my corner, maybe this is due to style. What do you guys think about Shimari the other side (R14) with Black 19 instead of O17 ? Thx for the comments, I really enjoy them and it is nice to see that even 3 or 4dans sometimes dont agree with each other 
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| Author: | hoohoo [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tournament this weekend, 3d v 1d (egf) |
Err some quick ideas. M19: Seems like a mistake in direction i would probably play r6. M23: I understand that you dont want to be counter pincered with m3 but getting white to build a moyo seems plausible, since you get the chance to play e6 for exampel reducing white increasing your and protecting your framework. If white simply attaches at n3 i think the end result is fine for black. M25: Dunno but i would tenuki and play b4. M29: Feels weird you got miai points for base. I would still take b4 since it defends moyo alittle and pressure white some. M33: Seems greedy to me but im unsure, hard to find the best move here. M51: Maybe better at r10 Rest seems to be just pure reading [edit] Meh most of what i said seems to have been said..[/edit] |
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