Life In 19x19 :: 18k game review

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18k game review http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9649	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Abyssinica [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:53 am ]
Post subject:	18k game review
Okay, I know they're probably not very interesting being at such a low rank, but as an aside to playing lots of games, I think reviews are another great way to improve. I've recently started playing on Tygem at 18k (I should feel honoured to play against sandbaggers so I can learn something), and I've started playing on kgs again after about 10 or so losses and 2 wins there. The people there just don't give up a fight and aren't hesitant to punish you for mistakes, so I feel it was a great place to learn. Anyways, this is a ranked game I recently won and I'm wondering how I can improve. I do have some comments about it though if anyone wants to see my 18k perspective. For some reason I like low Chinese; I don't exactly know how to follow it up well, but playing dual 4-4 leaves a bad taste in my mouth nowadays. Maybe this is too passive? Gotta get those sure points don't I? I think protecting my corner here is the right response. I don't care about G3 anymore. Let's try to link up or something. White having some kind of symmetrical shape here feels bad; I also get to jump out a bit which is nice. I am happy with this wall. I'm sure I messed up something in the centre and it's not ideal for me, but I can't tell where. Let's get some points and maybe possibly slightly not be able to link up with g3. I can take either F2 or E3 and link up. Since I'm linked up I can run out now? Really? Is that's what's going to happen? Thanks for pushing me up towards my stones with a wall? Empty table since I can't be cut in one move. I don't know what was, but I'll take advantage of it. If there was a white stone at D6, I'd be screwed with this. (e: I don't think so after looking at it some more, but I definately felt like it.) Try to reduce his territory here a bit and maybe settle a bit on the left side? :b103: Take all the corners! This is really why I don't like playing dual 4-4 stones anymore since I have no idea how to "counter" this besides the one out of two joseki I know. :b129: I won a game earlier by 1.5 points when I should've lost by 3.5 due to seki in a situation like this. I think this one made it live. (e: b9) :b149: I am very happy with this wall you're giving me because it helps me link up with my unsettled stones in the right. :w170: I can still kill those two groups and it does nothing, right? :b181: I just wanted to protect it more since I'm scared. :b193: The wall expands and I'm just fine with it. Everything it touches lives. :b201: If s6 didn't definately kill it, I think this does. :b239: I'll just solidify this territory; he can't do anything in one move in the bottom right, right?

Author:	skydyr [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
I'll write more later, but at move 101, White's previous move was a mistake, and Black can kill at B5.

Author:	Abyssinica [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
skydyr wrote: I'll write more later, but at move 101, White's previous move was a mistake, and Black can kill at B5. Black 133 - White D18 and then now what? For some reason I always miss possitions like this and just play this way as a reflex. I know it didn't work on the bottom left part of this group, though.

Author:	skydyr [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
I agree, this is a bit passive. Black could jump out one or two spaces, or take tengen, or approach the lower left corner to break up white's moyo potential. You can consider kicking one space lower, and proceeding to attack that group. Playing the one space jump instead is more solid, or you could play the other knights move at P10 to pressure white's group more. This is a kind of weird approach. In professional games, a 4-4 stone is approached with a small knights move at least 90% of the time. In addition, I prefer approaching from the other side, since white can't close off the bottom in one move. What is the purpose of this move, and does it still accomplish it if you lose in exchange? Interesting idea. When white blocks on the wrong side, you get a great result, but black should live either way, I think. You can already kill with B5. Move 105: This stone is worth one or two points. You can get a lot more than that by continuing from your 3-3 invasion before white responds. You seem to do decently enough fighting that I won't comment much on that. Move 133: This should be one space to the left, since white's cut is painful. Move 155: White is threatening to cut your groups, but all the groups are already alive, which makes the cut kind of meaningless. You can tenuki to take a big endgame point elsewhere. Move 163: White can't play here because it's self-atari, so you can safely ignore this until white connects his stone and take a big endgame point. Move 181: May as well play T14 or T15 instead, since you'll want to play there later. Move 187: Do you know about the monkey jump? Black can jump as far as K1 on the bottom there. That said, I prefer approaching from the other side at P2 first. Move 201: White's group is already dead and doesn't need another move. You can monkey jump to M1, or play a one-space jump to N2, or even play L1, which is a more advanced technique. That said, do you have a game that you lost you can post? Edit: Somehow missed 133, so I commented on it.

Author:

Abyssinica [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:52 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: 18k game review

skydyr wrote:

This is a kind of weird approach. In professional games, a 4-4 stone is approached with a small knights move at least 90% of the time. In addition, I prefer approaching from the other side, since white can't close off the bottom in one move.

I agree; I just saw a space down the middle and took it even though it gives me nothing; I should've played at f3 instead.

Quote:

What is the purpose of this move, and does it still accomplish it if you lose :b17:

in exchange?

I wanted to split him down the middle; it's probably not that valid and I had to attend to g3 in the meantime.

Quote:

Move 155: White is threatening to cut your groups, but all the groups are already alive, which makes the cut kind of meaningless. You can tenuki to take a big endgame point elsewhere.

I really didn't like that cut because it threatened my giant wall of life. Where would you say I should play?

Quote:

Move 187: Do you know about the monkey jump? Black can jump as far as K1 on the bottom there. That said, I prefer approaching from the other side at P2 first.

That's a knights move on the first line, right? I had it explained to me near the start of when I began playing, but I've never seen it used yet nor have I used it. It's kind of been forgotton.

Quote:

That said, do you have a game that you lost you can post?

I don't have any recent games on Kgs that I've lost and played out to the end after I started with Tygem, so I guess I can post a game I played against the person who got me back into go in the first place? I played a long time ago, but quit at ~25k level. I played this one on New Years. Handicap games are weird. Sure, I'm way better off here than if the game was even, but I have no idea where to even begin to go.

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Author:	cyclops [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
skydyr wrote: ........ You can already kill with B5. Even I think. W should have played there latest with . Quote: Move 105: This stone is worth one or two points. You can get a lot more than that by continuing from your 3-3 invasion before white responds. It is worse. The move even helps the opponent. For you to figure out. At game end the opponent still could have gained some 10 pts because you played 129 at the wrong spot.

Author:	skydyr [ Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
Abyssinica wrote: skydyr wrote: Quote: Move 155: White is threatening to cut your groups, but all the groups are already alive, which makes the cut kind of meaningless. You can tenuki to take a big endgame point elsewhere. I really didn't like that cut because it threatened my giant wall of life. Where would you say I should play? Well, the group on the left is alive, the group on top is alive, and the group on the right is alive. There's only a stone or so to save. As for where to go instead, P2, S10, K1, and S15 all look big.

Author:	Abyssinica [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
Here's one I had a little while ago that I thought was really, really hard; I wasn't at all happy with the result on the right side of the board, and I think the way I create and "protect" my own cutting points will be abused sooner rather than later. I played this guy once before, and he's still as much of a challenge as ever. I don't think I'm supposed to play this if white doesn't ni-ren sei. Maybe e4 or d15 is more conventional; I don't know. I see that white is protecting his corners a bit while I'm kind of backing off. Maybe playing that way isn't such a great idea if it allows me to kind of expand a bit too fast. Sure, I can be invaded, but at what cost? A few points in the corner? Because of that, I think that approaching at H9 with is an idea. Maybe not a good idea, but an idea. Protect my corner, get a few points to the side. I hope I protected it correctly; my instinct was on R16 for I start "protecting" cuts this way throughout the game. R16 was also another choice I would've played before, but I'm trying this for now until someone can tell me about it. Makes it so white can't invade ever. I think. At least that's what an 8k told me before, but I think H3 was played at K4 or somewhere closer during his review there. I'm panicking; I don't know what to do to limit its spread, so I'll just allow myself to be split. I think that's only a "good" idea if I have really close backup. Let's not hane everything. White's possibly not out just yet if it he ignores L11. Playing at M13 here was just me admitting that I couldn't contain him and trying to contain the spread from this direction. I don't know exactly why I did this. I assumed he would play R10, but did he even have to do that? It gives him an empty table and some more points, sure, but my next move at was something I was going to do anyways. Did it serve any purpose besides gaining me like 2 more points since he had to fill in one of his potential territory spaces? Here I'm commenting about the fact that I'm unsure of my current development. I'll take the star point, even though it's on the 4th line, to try and secure some points in the lower right. I think attaching under is a way to make a base and link myself up. Who cares if he saves M4? Don't grow! Extra precations that, once again, gives Sente to white. (I think I used that correctly.) Here I am scared of cuts again. All right, let's invade! I still have room for a two space extension here and I can run out towards the centre if white does something else but block me from doing that. I'm right on white's sector line and I don't think I can get a concrete base in there, but I feel I have to do it. I think I can get in here. 109 - Successfully cut the knight's jump as far as my reading will tell me. 117 Made sure that group can't run out. 124 - I don't know where to go from here; I considered g12, but thought I could just barely squeeze a little more out of white. 153 - I made sure I'm protected here and that I have stairs. With 154, what's going to happen? If he fills in that spot, I can just connect at A10, and he can't play inside my space there because of the liberty at F9. Say he does and I'm reduced to one eye. I still have a liberty at A11 which means I can capture at G8, or block at F9 if he tries to fill it in. 173 - Good god I thank myself for trying to play safe. I didn't read far enough to see if he could actually capture those groups, just a slight possibility. Completely lazy of me, but I'm glad I played here. 177 - I'm afraid of a snapback that doesn't exist and that I read out before?

Author:	skydyr [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
Quote: :b5: I don't think I'm supposed to play this if white doesn't ni-ren sei. Maybe e4 or d15 is more conventional; I don't know. Well, when white plays the shimari pointing towards your chinese formation, it limits black's potential on the bottom and at high levels arguable makes the game more favourable for white. At your level, you don't need to worry about it too much. You can always choose to approach the lower left instead, though. You can consider playing high instead of low (K16) since it is better at forming a moyo. Quote: :w8: I see that white is protecting his corners a bit while I'm kind of backing off. Maybe playing that way isn't such a great idea if it allows me to kind of expand a bit too fast. Sure, I can be invaded, but at what cost? A few points in the corner? Because of that, I think that approaching at H9 with is an idea. Maybe not a good idea, but an idea. The move you played seems fine. Both K17 and R9 are low, so black doesn't have as great potential for a board-spanning moyo. Quote: :b13: Protect my corner, get a few points to the side. I hope I protected it correctly; my instinct was on R16 for Kicking at is the right move. It doesn't really protect the corner, though. Instead, it makes white's group heavier. It's only right because of the R9 stone, which cramps white's extension later. For , this is a bit loose, and you can play one point higher at O16 to leave a lot less aji for white to exploit. As mentioned, technically white can still invade the 3-3 point after that, but until white's group starting at R14 is safe, invading there will hurt the first group, so you can attack R14 and then descend to S15 once white's group has become safer to solidify the corner. Quote: :b15: I start "protecting" cuts this way throughout the game. R16 was also another choice I would've played before, but I'm trying this for now until someone can tell me about it. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's not. In this case, I like connecting solidly because it gives white less forcing moves to try and do something to the corner later, and makes the corner almost certain territory. Quote: :b17: Makes it so white can't invade ever. I think. At least that's what an 8k told me before, but I think H3 was played at K4 or somewhere closer during his review there. This needs to be P10, or maybe P11 if you're feeling aggressive. White's group isn't alive yet, so the more pressure you put on him while staying solid, the more free moves you get as white wastes moves to save his group. Regarding 'makeing it so white can't invade ever,' it's quite possible that the surrounding situation was different, as an invasion seems quite possible to me here, though perhaps unwise at the moment. Also, an 8k player, while certainly having a fair amount of knowledge to impart, is really not an authority you should trust completely on whether something is invadable or not. I am significantly stronger than 8k, and you shouldn't fully trust my judgment on such things either. The cap at seems fine, and you should be thanking white for making you play , but here, black has lots of potential on the bottom, so walling it off is very good. Black has much less potential on the left, so walling it off is not so good. You can just play N8 and ask white how he's going to win when he's given you a quarter of the board without taking much for himself. [quote:b25: I'm panicking; I don't know what to do to limit its spread, so I'll just allow myself to be split. I think that's only a "good" idea if I have really close backup.[/quote] In this case, being cut is fine, because both sides have support, and white's stones are running on dame, which is to say that at the end of the game, they're not going to be enclosing any territory, but are on spaces that would have ended up worthless. You could just extend solidly with but your variation turns out well also. Let's not hane everything. Quote: :b39: White's possibly not out just yet if it he ignores L11. Playing at M13 here was just me admitting that I couldn't contain him and trying to contain the spread from this direction. This explanation contains a fundamental misunderstanding, I think. You don't need to kill white. In fact, you shouldn't even try too hard, because it can leave you with terrible weaknesses if white lives. All you need to do is to keep playing moves that keep the pressure on and give you an advantage, like territory or a solid influential group, while white wastes his moves saving his group. To that effect, you can play something farther out, like K13 or K12. In more advanced games, you will see black tenuki the local situation to play forcing moves on the opposite side of the board, because they're painful for white to ignore and when white responds, black has more stones available to eventually drive white into. Quote: :b45: I don't know exactly why I did this. I assumed he would play R10, but did he even have to do that? It gives him an empty table and some more points, sure, but my next move at was something I was going to do anyways. Did it serve any purpose besides gaining me like 2 more points since he had to fill in one of his potential territory spaces? is a thank you move that costs you points. It makes white more solid and it removes the option for bigger moves. If you must play locally, R10 is the move to play. It threatens to capture S10 or continue to Q10. Quote: :b49: Here I'm commenting about the fact that I'm unsure of my current development. I'll take the star point, even though it's on the 4th line, to try and secure some points in the lower right. It feels a bit submissive, but the bottom right is so big, and I don't think you can swallow white's stone. seems like a good reducing move for white. I think you can safely play M7. Quote: :b57: I think attaching under is a way to make a base and link myself up. White's stones are floaty and have no base. Cut at K5 or so and let white flail around and die inside your moyo. Worst case scenario, you give up the 4 stones above white's three and secure the rest as solid territory. Instead of spending a move here, capturing M4 protects against this. In addition, it's not that dangerous for black even if white cuts without . Black can connect at L3 and capture white before he can capture black. Quote: :b71: Extra precations that, once again, gives Sente to white. (I think I used that correctly.) This doesn't protect anything that needs protecting. In effect, you took gote twice to protect something white couldn't cut. Much better to just jump in on the left and make sure white is left short of points. Quote: :b77: Here I am scared of cuts again. This was necessary because of . Better to leave unplayed and strengthen this group instead. Quote: :b79: All right, let's invade! I still have room for a two space extension here and I can run out towards the centre if white does something else but block me from doing that. I'm right on white's sector line and I don't think I can get a concrete base in there, but I feel I have to do it. This move seems fine, but make sure that white can't cut off your weak center group. I'm not going to go over the rest of the game, because once black's center group is safe, white's short on points and the game is basically over.

Author:	cyclops [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
skydyr wrote: ........ You can already kill with B5. Even I think. W should have played there latest with . Quote: Move 105: This stone is worth one or two points. You can get a lot more than that by continuing from your 3-3 invasion before white responds. It is worse. The move even helps the opponent. For you to figure out. At game end the opponent still could have gained some 10 pts because you played 129 at the wrong spot.

Author:

Abyssinica [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:44 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: 18k game review

Hey everyone, I just played this game with my friend here a little while ago, and one of the consensuses we came to was that endgame started ~move 91. What do you think?

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Author:	cyclops [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
How did you like the comments you got so far? What did you learn from them?

Author:	Abyssinica [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
cyclops wrote: How did you like the comments you got so far? What did you learn from them? The most direct thing I got from your comments was about my cutting points near the side or the edge; I started to protect them better so that groups of 1-4 pieces couldn't be taken at a time. I can't really think of anything else off of the top of my head. e: Oh, I think you meant tonberry's. He mostly gave me direction about where to go once I got confused for a bit as well as put it in my head that just pure joseki sequence knowledge is bad if you don't know what to do with it or why to do that particular joseki. After the game I was shown a few different moves that work better in situations for me, like the hane at c3 for move 58 which doesn't correlate exactly into something learned that I can verbalise, but it's good for being able to spot from experience. "Oh, you can't cut here because I can atari, and there's nothing you can do to endanger me or save that particular stone." More opinions is always nice though.

Author:	cyclops [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
At 18 you made a peep. That is a forcing move that you should abandon immediately afterwards. Maybe it brings you profit but it shouldn't trouble you. Instead up to 78 you played 6 moves to connect it to the other end of the board. In the same time w played 4 moves to hinder you. Compare the amout of territory he and you made during this walk. And remember he saved two moves in the process.

Author:	Abyssinica [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 18k game review
I guess I thought that move would allow me to more easily extend to the side star-point from my 4-4 and take some territory at the top, but it's probably (obviously) too close to that white wall to even matter in doing so. But, no, I just end up with a bunch of no-point loose connections in the centre of the board that don't really give me much points. Everything's connected and safe, but he's got a bunch of huge chunks of it. I guess I like to save everything if it can be helped. Bad.

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