ZeroKun wrote:
What an odd place to end the game, the group in atari doesn't really concern me, there's also a point up on top after the liberties have been take away from white's group as there is a false eye.
There are two points on top.
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| Recent rules debate on Baduk TV http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=1739 |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
http://www.starbaduk.com/24475 |
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| Author: | Jordus [ Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
IMO the pass is a move just as important as placing a stone on the board.. if both players missed the atari and passed then that white group is alive because the game is now done... both players accepted the current board position as final... and gone to counting... so white wins... |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
I think that in almost all rule sets, there is a provision that the players have to confirm the result in the end. After that confirmation, the result cannot be changed. This is important, since further actions and tournament proceedings will depend on the result. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
Korean rules are very peculiar concerning the game ending. As long as we do not see the current Korean rules of play AND tournament rules translated to English, we cannot know at all what the correct dispute ruling should be. Note that the 1992 rules were changed in the meantime but I have not seen them in English yet, the most unfortunately. |
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| Author: | ZeroKun [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
What an odd place to end the game, the group in atari doesn't really concern me, there's also a point up on top after the liberties have been take away from white's group as there is a false eye. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
ZeroKun wrote: What an odd place to end the game, the group in atari doesn't really concern me, there's also a point up on top after the liberties have been take away from white's group as there is a false eye. There are two points on top.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
RobertJasiek wrote: Korean rules are very peculiar concerning the game ending. As long as we do not see the current Korean rules of play AND tournament rules translated to English, we cannot know at all what the correct dispute ruling should be. Note that the 1992 rules were changed in the meantime but I have not seen them in English yet, the most unfortunately. Yes, we need to know what the rules actually say. Also, I think that we need a proper accounting of the events. What I have seen reported so far sounds questionable. |
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| Author: | freegame [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
my opinion EGF rules section 5 wrote: ... Then on neutralised time, more dame and teire may be filled quickly in continued alternation. Therefore, according to EGF rules white just needs to connect during dame filling because it is a teire. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
To avoid trouble, before signing the result sheet. |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
Bill Spight wrote: ZeroKun wrote: What an odd place to end the game, the group in atari doesn't really concern me, there's also a point up on top after the liberties have been take away from white's group as there is a false eye. There are two points on top. don't think this is the final board position... hajin wrote: In this game, they kept playing after black atari-ed, but neither of them saw the atari till the video check up.
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| Author: | xed_over [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
http://www.baduk.or.kr/news/homenews_vi ... 11&frpg=MN   
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| Author: | nagano [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
I'm rikugo1 on Starbaduk. I've posted the game record here, though it may generate more questions than it answers. |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
thanks for the game record nagano wrote: I've posted the game record here, though it may generate more questions than it answers. yeah because in this record, white fills E1 (at move 280) giving a final score of B+0.5 |
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| Author: | willemien [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
Helel wrote: Pros missing an atari...   I am missing it as well  which atari is ment and so? (please give move numbers) or a snapshot of the position
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| Author: | palapiku [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
move 279 |
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| Author: | willemien [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
palapiku wrote: move 279 279 (:b1:)is an atari that is true but after that white connects at 280 (:w2:)(at least that is in the game record) |
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| Author: | nagano [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
willemien wrote: palapiku wrote: move 279 279 (:b1:)is an atari that is true but after that white connects at 280 (:w2:)(at least that is in the game record) But it is not in the tape, if you look at the pictures closely. |
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| Author: | willemien [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
nagano wrote: willemien wrote: palapiku wrote: move 279 279 (  )is an atari that is true but after that white connects at 280 (  )(at least that is in the game record)But it is not in the tape, if you look at the pictures closely. Thanks the game record seems to be incorrect (in the screenshot W282 is allready played so where was W280 really played? EDIT removed froudolous was indeed to strong. (and misspelled) |
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| Author: | nagano [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
willemien wrote: Thanks the game record seems to be fraudulous (in the screenshot W282 is played so where was w28o really played? I think "fraudulous" is too strong a word. The game record in this form is agreed upon by Cyberoro, Tygem, and weiqi.tom.com, so any error is probably the fault of the recorder. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Recent rules debate on Baduk TV |
What about M14? That's a false eye too? Not only that, but with the N19 tesuji another point would have to be filled by White. Scoring without filling in all dame / false eyes is always risky because of stuff like this. Do we even know whether it was the N19 tesuji or the E1 point that was the cause of the scoring discrepancy? I guess moral of the story is fill all the dame on the clock, or something ..  EDIT: I write this because the position in the original link did not match the end position in the .sgf posted by nagano, so it is unclear which of these points were filled in game and which in scoring. |
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