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 Post subject: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:21 am 
Tengen

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The II. Corona-Cup 2020 is announced here:
https://www.eurogofed.org/tm/uploads/to ... VKFoz2MQBM

It would have been nice if tournament rules (e.g., EGF General Tournament Rules) had been declared so that it would have been clear which Japanese rules are announced as "Japanese Rules", else if they had been clarified (e.g. as Verbal European-Japanese Rules) because KGS-Japanese Rules are ambiguous.

The Fair Play rules are:
"Fair play is a necessary part of the tournament. It’s not allowed to use any joseki dictionaries, AI or outside help. An impartial team of arbiters will check played games for signs of cheating using state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools. If the arbiters find it clear that a player has cheated, all of the player‘sgames will be forfeited and the playerdisqualified immediately. These rules will be enforced very strictly. Players 5-dan and stronger have to use webcameras during the game at least for offline recording. For other players this is optional, but strongly recommended."

Since I have never used a webcam (except on the iPad, whose storage would be insufficient for recording) and do not possess any for my PC, I need to understand what qualifies a camera as "webcam", how is it operated, can one use a browser for that purpose or does one need special software? Will one be identified as a "cheater" just because that software or video transfer via the internet fails or is interrupted? IMX, video streaming or recording are unreliable, so why should they be more reliable for webcams?

Fair play and prohibition of help are very good. (Except that I would allow help for disabled players to operate their moves or computer + webcam for transmitting / saving their moves and video recording.)

What are state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools? IMO, it is mandatory for such to include open source codes, decision-making and protocols. Will they include these so that each person can comprehend and reproduce the supposedly impartial and objective decisions by the Anti-cheating committee? By all means, go must avoid the mistakes of chess, where secrecy in the name of impartiality and objectivity destroys trust among all players and life-long reputation of allegedly convicted players.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:32 am 
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If you don't have a webcam on your PC you can buy one for less than 10 € and plug it on an USB port, and you can record for instance your screen + whatever is on the camera with OBS Studio.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:43 am 
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I see, thanks. Open source software sounds reasonable. However, on reading its description, I become aware of further problems: such (or other) software can mix or edit, that is, manipulate video streams. This possibility does not ease life of arbiters. A webcam should at least record both the player, and the display and input hardware he uses for playing. Such a rule, however, is missing. If some players use a webcam built into their display, it cannot safely be sure to record the display.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:21 pm 
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You will never be 100% sure that cheating did or did not occur, unless the video shows the screen and the player's hands, and is sent in real time to a live streaming platform. Unfortunately, such a protocol would be too complicated. I guess the goal of the recommended protocol is to deter most cheaters without putting too much burden on the players. Manipulating videos is possible, but doing an undetectable manipulation is not easy.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Quote:
You will never be 100% sure that cheating did or did not occur,


Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you :)

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:10 pm 
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jlt, live video is not good enough because a player might need to leave the seat to fetch or abandon liquid. Many players possess go books, which might accidentally be filmed resting in the background. Or opened instead of liquid in another room. Etc.

John, paranoia is a wrong description given the experience with chess and AI cheating disputes. Not all cases have only relied on the most obvious, unequivocal facts. Misjudgements are likely when relying on indirect "evidence".

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:17 pm 
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Then keep all liquid and food at hand. Remains the voiding process, you are right that cheating may occur a couple of times during the game, there is no way to avoid that completely.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #8 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:57 am 
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In my opinion the important part is that they adress the elephant and come across as prepared. It is also okay that they don't specify the anti-cheating tools - it's standard practice to defer cheaters from looking into them and finding loop holes. But they should specify the procedures when those tools identify an alleged cheater. Will there be communication with the suspected player before the ban? Will evidence be presented in any shape or form? Will there be an appeal commitee? (I'm fine if they don't do any of the above, it just should be clear. It's a private tournament and organisers rightfully have all the power - unless the sponser does.)

Videotaping players for a strictly online tournament seems to be "the state of the art" right now but it's cumbersome at best. I also hope someone looked into the European General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR). The reason we are in this mess is that go servers still don't have anti-cheating tools implemented. Are there actually any in development?

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #9 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:35 am 
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Quote:
An impartial team of arbiters will check played games for signs of cheating using state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools.


When I read this, I have to be honest and say that I'm tempted to enter and cheat a little, just to see if I can be found out.

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If the arbiters find it clear that a player has cheated, all of the player‘s games will be forfeited and the player disqualified immediately.

I don't think that this is compatible with the rules governing EGF Grand Prix events. (Is this also an exception?)

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #10 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:18 pm 
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I'm tempted to enter and cheat a little, just to see if I can be found out


Are you confident that if you start cheating, then you'd be able to stop?

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #11 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:21 pm 
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jlt wrote:
Quote:
I'm tempted to enter and cheat a little, just to see if I can be found out


Are you confident that if you start cheating, then you'd be able to stop?


Yes. I don't think that would be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #12 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:16 am 
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Since the tournament starts tomorrow and my questions to the contact person of the tournament have not been answered yet, I describe the most important points of the current rules state:


It is unclear which Japanese rules apply. If the EGF General Tournament Rules apply (see §1), it would be the Verbal European-Japanese Rules (sekis without territory). Otherwise, one can also asssume that the KGS-Japanese Rules apply (sekis with territory).

It is unclear if the EGF General Tournament Rules apply.

It is unclear if "winner of mutual game" only applies to exactly two still tied players.

It is unclear how the Anti-cheating committee fits into the arbitration system of Referee, Appeals committee and (if the EGF General Tournament Rules apply) EGF Rules Commission, if the Anti-cheating committee only gives recommendations or is an arbitration instance of its own, which, and hence if the players are granted their right to a fair trial according to international law.

It is unclear what are the state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools.

It is unclear if they include open source codes, open decision-making and open protocols so that each person can comprehend and reproduce the supposedly impartial and objective decisions by the Anti-cheating committee and arbiters.

It is unclear what a webcam must record, what happens in cases of software bugs during the video recording and if closed go books in the background may be filmed.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #13 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:11 am 
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I doubt that "state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools" really exist, no one seems to have heard of such tools. My guess is that if a player is suspected of cheating and complains, then Antti Tormannen will first make a human analysis and try to find suspicious moves, then compare with input from and AI, and then compare with the video. If at each of the suspicious moves the video is unclear, absent or suspicious, then the suspected player will be eliminated from the tournament.

So IMO the video is there to disprove any cheating suspicions if any, it is your responsibility to make the best recording possible of your hands + your screen if possible.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #14 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:49 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
It is unclear how the Anti-cheating committee fits into the arbitration system of Referee, Appeals committee and (if the EGF General Tournament Rules apply) EGF Rules Commission, if the Anti-cheating committee only gives recommendations or is an arbitration instance of its own, which, and hence if the players are granted their right to a fair trial according to international law.


(emphasis mine)

:lol:

By the same token, it is unclear how this forum grants me the right to a fair trial. And how is it handled on KGS? War criminals everywhere.

In all seriousness, people here like to go full Boston Legal when it comes to online cheating. But there is a big difference (not only legally) between state level jurisdiction and a small privately organised event.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #15 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:21 am 
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jlt wrote:
I doubt that "state-of-the-art anti-cheating tools" really exist, no one seems to have heard of such tools.

Me, too. How are such tools validated? You don't have to reveal how they work to say how they have been validated. :)

Hmmm. Well, they might be state of the art if state of the art is by guess and by golly. ;)

Quote:
So IMO the video is there to disprove any cheating suspicions if any, it is your responsibility to make the best recording possible of your hands + your screen if possible.


Good point. :)

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #16 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:40 am 
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SoDesuNe, initial ignorance of the relation between sports courts and ordinary courts leads to cases such as of Claudia Pechstein. From them we learn that sports jurisdiction is bound by the rights granted by ordinary law.

Since a federation and other organisations are (somehow) involved in this tournament, it is not a "privately organised event". Nor is it a "small" event.

Anti-doping and anti-cheating mechanisms must not be constructed to produce convicted persons for its own sake. We must not destroy life-long reputations in the name of anti-doping or anti-cheating. Neither is as harmless as earlier go disputes, which usually were about the outcome of just one game. Life-long reputations or life-long bans have an uncomparably greater impact. Therefore, do not dismiss the topic as a joke while in fact it is extremely serious to judge whether somebody cheats. This can even have implications of fraud under regular law.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #17 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:45 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
> it is not a "privately organised event".


Quick correction here: Privately organized means organized by a private entity as opposed to organized by by a public entity (the government).

To quote one definition: "Private entity" means any entity that is not a unit of government, including but not limited to a corporation, partnership, company, nonprofit organization or other legal entity or a natural person.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #18 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:49 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
SoDesuNe, initial ignorance of the relation between sports courts and ordinary courts leads to cases such as of Claudia Pechstein. From them we learn that sports jurisdiction is bound by the rights granted by ordinary law.

Since a federation and other organisations are (somehow) involved in this tournament, it is not a "privately organised event". Nor is it a "small" event.

Anti-doping and anti-cheating mechanisms must not be constructed to produce convicted persons for its own sake. We must not destroy life-long reputations in the name of anti-doping or anti-cheating. Neither is as harmless as earlier go disputes, which usually were about the outcome of just one game. Life-long reputations or life-long bans have an uncomparably greater impact. Therefore, do not dismiss the topic as a joke while in fact it is extremely serious to judge whether somebody cheats. This can even have implications of fraud under regular law.


Lukas Podpera is no organisation governing your right to participate in go tournaments and make a living from it (ie not like in the Pechstein case). The (somehow) involvement of the EGF as a sponsor does not make this an EGF tournament (only the European Championship is technically a EGF tournament?).

If you cheat in the Corona Cup the only repercussion is you get disqualified from this tournament - there are not even legal repercussions mentioned (ie not like in the Pechstein case).

So please don't just drop law terms and on the surface comparable cases when you actually want to discuss morales and ethics. (Even in the Pechstein case she went all the way before the European Court of Human Rights and they ultimately dismissed her case. The initial ruling was therefore legally correct.)

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #19 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:12 am 
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The EGF is more than a sponsor: it supports the tournament, includes it in the European Grand Prix and sets a rating class for it. From an outsider, it is still an open question whether this is an EGF tournament.

Being disqualified from a tournament for cheating has effects on rating and, much more important, reputation.

Of course, the Pechstein case is not 1:1 identical. (Her trial before the Bundesverfassungsgericht is still active but probably not so relevant. The European Court of Human Rights identifying a procedural mistake in the CAS procedure but with minor impact on her case.)

Her basic case at CAS then at the Swiss courts is closed and mostly legally binding. However, this does not mean that the CAS judgement would have been right. CAS found guilt in high values of red blood particles interpreting them as doping but failed to consider all possible causes. A very likely cause is a blood anomaly inherited from her father.

We can discuss morales and ethics but I do indeed also want to discuss the laws and basic rights.

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 Post subject: Re: II. Corona-Cup 2020 Rules
Post #20 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:30 pm 
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I think a tournament which is part of the EGF Grand Prix has to be considered as an EGF tournament. Organisers are, after all, normally paying money to the EGF to include their tournaments. In that respect, it does seem normal that they anyone thrown out for cheating ought to be able to take an appeal through the normal stages.

The other questions of Robert's don't seem as important to me. The Japanese rules will be whatever the server has implemented, and the exact set up for webcams ought to be easily clarified by the Tournament Director.

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