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 Post subject: ancient rules in Thirteen Chapters Classic
Post #1 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:11 am 
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Research of ancient weiqi rules in 2 Chinese classic books

author:Zhang hu
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"Scoring Rules by Captives/Prisoners(计俘子规则), found by Zhang hu(章浒)",
"If you quote my arguments, please attach the above texts and relevant contents."

Introduction & Part 1: a hidden rule in ancient weiqi rules(Song Dynasty and more early) at https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865
Part 2: ancient rules in "texts & annotations" of The Thirteen Chapters Classic at here
Part 3: ancient rules in texts of Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi at https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17870

The preparation knowledge is in part1 https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865,
otherwise it is not easy to understand the following content. So, please read part1 carefully first.


(Part2-1 2-2 2-3 2-4 as below)

Part 2-1 of ancient rules in "texts & annotations" of The Thirteen Chapters Classic

see the whole page here: https://www.lifein19x19.com/download/file.php?id=13558
picture from the Thirteen Chapters Classic in Lan Ke Jing
Attachment:
lankejing_3.png
lankejing_3.png [ 238.45 KiB | Viewed 2892 times ]


Zhang jing(张靖)'s text:
胜而路多,名曰赢局。

winning(胜) by more Lu(路多) than the other, called(名曰) winning on the board(赢局).

comment:Lu is Chinese character 路.

means the usual situation - when scoring, just need to count Lu on the board only.
see:1-1.png and 1-3.png at https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 23#p261523

please look 1-3.png, by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 16 + 2 = 18 Lu,
White side: 14 - 3 = 11 Lu, (3 white dead stones are filled in white's territory)
Black wins 7 Lu.

Comment:
1. Basic liberties/eyes making group alive forever must be left.
2. As a simple method, weiqi players in Song Dynasty often directly fill the prisoners into each other's territory.

My comments:
the translation of 筹 as "counting rods" of below is not a good translation, Now I changed it to "chips".
2020/11/19 10:23 beijing time
the translation of 子 as "pieces/piece" of below maybe is not a good translation, Now I changed it to "stones/stone". 2020/11/22 01:32 beijing time

Zhang jing(张靖)'s text:
败而无路,名曰输筹。

losing(败) at none Lu(无路), called(名曰) losing chips(输筹).

means loser has filled in all his territory on the board,and only basic liberties for group alive not be filled.
Attachment:
none_lu.png
none_lu.png [ 72.68 KiB | Viewed 2645 times ]

○ are basic eyes making group alive forever, you can not fill in it,
▲ are Lu(on the board) - territory on the board in the Song Dynasty,
and we will find 1 prisoner = 1 Lu.

Above, by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 3 Lu(on the board),
Black captured: 3 + 1 = 4 prisoners;
White side: 0 Lu(on the board)
White captured: 0 prisoner;
Black wins 3 Lu(on the board) and wins 4 prisoners,
the final score is: Black wins 7 Lu.

Now, we conclude:
in the Song Dynasty, people will count Lu(on the board) and must count prisoners in the same time at some unusual situations.


and We find that Lu(on the board) is the ability to capture more prisoners, 1 prisoner = 1 Lu.

Pay attention to this: chips(筹) is also mentioned in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi(敦煌《碁经》).
Chips is similar as Casino Chips for exchanging, Weiqi players use it in the northern and Southern Dynasties(the times of Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi).
In the Song Dynasty(the times of Thirteen Chapters Classic), people use Lu and prisoners for scoring, they no longer use chips, but there is still a legacy of that language.

Are there any relationship between chips and prisoners? see below.


Liu zhong fu(刘仲甫) annoted:
局满而有余子曰赢筹,无余子曰实局。

the board is full of stones(局满), if there are superfluous stones(有余子), called(名曰) winning chips(赢筹).
the board is full of stones(局满), if there is none superfluous stone(无余子), called(名曰) filling full the board only(实局).

Pay attention to this: stones/stone(子) and chips(筹) are also mentioned in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi(敦煌《碁经》).

What is stone(s)(子)? chess pieces of Weiqi.
Stones/stone(子) are not just living stones on the board.
Many people refer to the Chinese character - stones/stone(子), and take them for granted as living stones on the board.
It's wrong.

Stones/stone(子) have three statuses:
1. before putting on the board.
2. on the board.
3. captured by another party as prisoners.
In different status, the Chinese character stones(子) will be different meaning.

When the board is filling full(局满), there are superfluous stones(有余子), "superfluous stones" means what?
status 1: It's not about scoring.
status 2: The board is filling full of stones(局满), where could I find more superfluous stones?
and please pay attention to this: at the times of Song Dynasty, people score by Lu and they don't score living stones on the board!
status 3: prisoners. Yes,it is.

So, superfluous stones(有余子) is superfluous prisoners.
When the board is filling full(局满), superfluous stones/prisoners(有余子) is called winning chips(赢筹).

Now we know, winning chips means winning prisoners, and losing chips means losing prisoners.
Chips represent prisoners.

I will explain chips later with Dunhuang Classic of weiqi(敦煌《碁经》) at part 3.

Comment:
1. Basic eyes making group alive must be left, when the board is filling full of stones.
2. As a simple method, weiqi players in Song Dynasty often directly fill the prisoners into each other's territory.

Attachment:
4.png
4.png [ 100.71 KiB | Viewed 2772 times ]

○ is basic liberties/eyes which making group alive forever, you can not fill in it.

Above, by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 0 Lu(on the board),
Black captured: 3 + 4 = 7 prisoners;
White side: 0 Lu(on the board),
White captured: 0 prisoner;

the final score is Black wins 7 prisoners/Lu;

Black side is in these 2 situations:
1. the board is filling full of stones(局满), and captured superfluous prisoners(有余子) from White side, called winning chips(赢筹).
2. the board is filling full of stones(局满), and none black stone captured by the other side(无余子), called filled the board only(实局).

White side is in that situaton:
the board is filling full of stones(局满), and some white prisoners captured by the other, called losing chips(输筹).


Now, we conclude:
in the Song Dynasty, people will and MUST count prisoners only, when the board is filling full of stones(局满) both white and black sides.

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


Last edited by pgwq on Wed May 12, 2021 11:16 pm, edited 190 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #2 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:12 am 
Honinbo

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pgwq wrote:
Part 2 of research of ancient weiqi rules in 2 Chinese classic books

Attachment:
lankejing_3.png


Zhang Jing's text:
1)胜而路多,名曰赢局。
One party has more Lu than the other, called win on board.

means the usual situation.
see:https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865 #2

by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 16 + 2 = 18 Lu,
White side: 14 - 3 = 11 Lu, (3 white dead stones are filled in white's territory)
black wins 7 Lu.

2)败而无路,名曰输筹。
One party has many Lu, the other doesn't own any Lu, called losing Casino Chips.
see below:
Attachment:
lu.png

means one party has filled in all his territory on the board,and only basic liberty for group livng not filled.

by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 4 lu,
Black captured: 3 prisoners,
White side: 0 lu,

black wins 4 Lu on the board and wins 3 prisoners outside the board,
the final score is 7.

Why are prisoners connecting with Casino Chips, I will explain it later with Classic found at Dunhuang.
and PS:We will find that The Lu is the ability to capture more prisoners.


Liu zhong fu annoted:
局满而有余子曰赢筹,无余子曰实局。
editing


Sorry, but this page so far is as clear as mud. :scratch:

But Casino Chips makes sense.
Quote:
Here's your change.

:lol:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #3 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:57 pm 
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Part 2-2 of ancient rules in "texts & annotations" of The Thirteen Chapters Classic

picture from the Thirteen Chapters Classic in Lan Ke Jing
Attachment:
lankejing_4.png
lankejing_4.png [ 205.82 KiB | Viewed 2771 times ]

Zhang jing(张靖)'s texts:皆筹为溢。
Chips(筹) by both sides(皆), in the status of overflowing(溢).

My comments:
Because of chips represent prisoners, and it's in this situation: the board is filling full of stones(局满).
"chips by both sides" means: Black side has to hand over prisoner to White, White side too.
Imagine that board is filling full, and handing over prisoner above the board - overflow!

pay attention to this:
chips(筹) and overflow(溢), these words are also mentioned in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi(敦煌《碁经》).

why are prisoners associated with chips(筹) and chips represent prisoners?
Simply say,at the times of Dunhuang, people use net score of prisoners of a game to exchange chips.
So, at the times of Dunhuang, chips represent prisoners. In the Song Dynasty, people no longer use chips, but there is still a legacy of that language. see part 3.

Liu zhongfu(刘仲甫) annoted:
皆筹为溢。器中积水满而流出曰溢。孝经云:“满而不溢。” 是也。
白子黑子两棋非满局,路各有多者为赢。

"Chips by both sides, in the status of overflowing."
The water in the vessel overflows(溢) when it is full. Filial piety says: "full but not overflowing(溢)." Yes, it means this.
Both Black side and White side are not filling full on the board, and who have more Lu will win.

My comments:
Liu explained "full" and "overflow", but he did not explain what is "chips".
My view is: full(满) is a situation of the board, overflow(溢) is a status of stones.
the last sentence "Both Black stones side and White stones side are not filling full on the board, and who have more Lu will win" back to the usual situaton.

Please read comments in SGF below and click ">" button to the last move:


Above, please jump to last move 42,
by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 0 lu,
Black captured: 3 + 5 = 8 prisoners,
White side: 0 lu,
White captured: 1 prisoner,

the final score is 8 - 1 = 7, Black wins 7 prisoners

We can also say: Black wins 7 stones/prisoners(子).

the status of stones(子) is in the status3, IS NOT in the status2 - living stones(活子) on the board!
So, in different status, the Chinese character stones(子) will be different meaning.

stones/stone(子) have three statuses:
1. before putting on the board.
2. on the board.
3. captured by another party as prisoners.

by the way, in the Ming Dynasty "stones(子)" means stones on the board.


Attachments:
liang_yi.sgf [1.03 KiB]
Downloaded 364 times

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


Last edited by pgwq on Tue May 11, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 77 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #4 Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:56 am 
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Part 2-3 of ancient rules in "texts & annotations" of The Thirteen Chapters Classic

picture from the Thirteen Chapters Classic in Lan Ke Jing
Attachment:
lankejing_5.png
lankejing_5.png [ 398.28 KiB | Viewed 2591 times ]


Zhang Jing(张靖)'s texts:停路为芇(音绵)。
equal(停) in Lu(路),called Mian(芇). sound mian(绵)

My comments: about tie game.
What is Lu(路)? the answer is:
Picking up all stone(s) which not alive forever from the board, let them become prisoners of the other side,
then filling the prisoners into each other's territory, now Lu is the empty intersections of one party on the board(except basic liberties which make groups alive forever).

What does "equal in Lu" means? Please see SGF below:

1.game is over now.


2.scoring:
step 1: filling the prisoners into each other's territory
In usual situation, as a simple method, weiqi players in Song Dynasty directly fill the prisoners into each other's territory.

step 2: counting Lu
Lu of Black: 14 Lu (lable ▲)
Lu of White: 14 Lu (lable ■)

step 3: scoring
14 - 14 = 0

So, it is "equal in Lu (停路)", a tie game.

What is Lu?
After filling the prisoners into each other's territory, the empty intersections on the board(except basic liberies which make groups alive forever)




Liu zhong fu(刘仲甫)annoted: 芇,相当也。两家不胜不败,故名芇,俗谓停局。
Mian(芇) is balance. Both parties are not winner or loser, So called Mian(芇),popular saying:equal on the board.

my comments:Mian(芇) means tie game.

Zhang Jing(张靖)'s texts:打筹不得过三,淘子不限其数。
Gaining chips(打筹), prohibited exceeding three [moves at a time].
Picking up stones(淘子), unlimited quantity.

my comments:
1. Three(三) is a lucky number. have a joke. Three(三) is also mentioned in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi.
2. Chinese charcter "打" doesn't mean "hit" or "attack", please see: fetch water(打水).
So, "打筹“ means gaining chips, and gaining prisoners = gaining chips, why?
3. More details, please see Liu zhong fu's annotation below.

We will know, it means:
Gaining chips(打筹), putting down three stones (limited to below 3) on the board at a time.
Picking up stones which not alive forever from the board keep as opponent's prisoners , unlimited quantity.


Liu zhong fu(刘仲甫) annoted:棊家许连下三子打筹,虽许用三,将杀则止。
Weiqi players(棊家) are allowed(许) to continuous put down(连下) three stones (三子) at a time to gain chips(打筹),
Although(虽) putting down three stones(用三) are allowed(许), if any groups on the board will be killed(将杀) , you must stop(止).

My comments:
Here is the key contents.Chips represent prisoners.So, Gaining chips mean gaining prisoners.
Let's think:
If one party continuous put down(连下) three stones, the other party must hand over three prisoner.
Otherwise, the final score will change, as we've discussed.
If one party does "gaining chips(打筹)", he(she) will gain prisoners.
So, gaining chips = gaining prisoners.

Important details of explaination please see: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 76#p261576

Zhang Jing(张靖)'s texts:劫有金井、辘轳,有无休之势、有交递之图,而奕棊者不可不知也。
my comment:about ko,I have written an Chinese article("the study of Ladder and Ko in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi(敦煌《碁经》中征与劫的研究)" Hangzhou 2016) about it.


Liu zhong fu(刘仲甫) annoted:非生非死非劫非持,今定名曰“循环势”。
my comment:I have written an Chinese article("the study of Ladder and Ko in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi" Hangzhou 2016) about it. 非生非死非劫非持 is mentioned in Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi.


Attachments:
tinglu-2.sgf [976 Bytes]
Downloaded 320 times
tinglu.sgf [309 Bytes]
Downloaded 325 times

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


Last edited by pgwq on Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 am, edited 79 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #5 Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:39 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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pgwq wrote:
here is part 1: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865

Part 2-1 of research of ancient weiqi rules in 2 Chinese classic books

picture from the Thirteen Chapters Classic in Lan Ke Jing
Attachment:
lankejing_3.png


Zhang Jing(张靖)'s text:
1)胜而路多,名曰赢局。

One party has more Lu than the other(胜而路多), called winning on the board(赢局).
(comment:Lu is Chinese 路.)

means the usual situation - for score, counting Lu only.
see:https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865 #2

by rules of Song Dynasty:
Black side: 16 + 2 = 18 Lu,
White side: 14 - 3 = 11 Lu, (3 white dead stones are filled in white's territory)
black wins 7 Lu.


It would be very helpful if you used SGF files (See https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=833 ) and/or diagrams (See https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=226 ).

Thanks. :)

Edit2: Here is an SGF file, for instance.



Edit: Also:

see:https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=17865 #2

Does not work as a link.

Try this:

see: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 23#p261523

You have to link to the post itself. #2 does not work.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #6 Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:31 am 
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Part 2-4 of ancient rules in "texts & annotations" of The Thirteen Chapters Classic

picking up stones and gaining chips

step1: picking up stones(淘子)
Picking up stone(s) which not alive forever from the board keep as opponent's prisoners , unlimited quantity.
means take these stones off the board and keep as opponent's prisoners, unlimited quantity.

picking up stones, unlimited quantity.
Three white stones at label "A,B,C" are not alive forever,which directly moved to site of label"X", filling into white's territory.

My comments:
1.As a simple method, weiqi players in Song Dynasty often directly fill the prisoners into each other's territory,then counting Lu.
In today's Japan and South Korea, it is also operated in this way.

2.weiqi players in the times of Dunhuang, they just take these stones off the board and keep as opponent's prisoners,
and they don't fill these prisoners into each other's territory.
Because, if people at the times of Dunhuang do this action same as in Song Dynasty, the rules of scoreing are not difference.
More details please see part 3 of the article.

The above is in usual situation.
when scoring, we just need to count Lu on the board only.

If in some unusual situatons,we need step 2 and step3.
And we will find that "gaining chips" is a routine operation at the times of Dunhuang Classic of Weiqi. Please see part3 for more details.


step2: gain chips(打筹)-preparation (in unusual situation):
Gaining chips(打筹), prohibited exceeding three moves at a time.
when gaining chips,you can only continuous putt down THREE stones on the board at a time.

Step 2-1:
Both parties continuous put down three stones at a time.

Black / White (put down three stones at a time)
ABC / DEF
GHI / JKL
MNO / PQR
STU / VWX

step 2-2:
Although putting down three stones are allowed, if groups on the board will be killed, you must stop.
Both parties only put down one stone at this time, because if more, white group on the board will die.

Black / White
Y / Z

Please see details at sgf below:



step3: gain chips(打筹) (in unusual situation):
when gaining chips,you can only continuous putting down THREE stones on the board at a time.
my comment:gaining chips = gaining prisoners

step 3-1:
Black party continuous put down three stones at a time.
White party hand over three prisoners to Black party at a time.

Black / White
ABC / hands over 3 prisoners to Black
DEF / hands over 3 prisoners to Black

step 3-2:
Although putting down three stones are allowed,if groups on the board will be killed, you must stop.
Black party only put down one stone at this time,because if more, Black group on the board will die.

Black / White
G / hands over 1 prisoner to Black

game is over now.

Final Score is:
Black side wins 3 + 3 + 1 = 7 stones/prisoners

Please see details at sgf below:


Attachments:
taozi_dachou_4.sgf [1.2 KiB]
Downloaded 304 times
taozi_dachou_3.sgf [1.07 KiB]
Downloaded 308 times
taozi_dachou_2.sgf [623 Bytes]
Downloaded 318 times

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


Last edited by pgwq on Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:50 am, edited 52 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: ancient rules in texts & annotations of 13 Chapters Clas
Post #7 Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:21 am 
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Part2-1,part2-2,part2-3,part2-4 of "ancient rules in 'texts & annotations' of The Thirteen Chapters Classicis" has finished now.

part 3 beginning.

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China

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