John Fairbairn wrote:
以下中文由机器翻译(稍作修改):
For the benefit of others, our Shanghai friend is making the argument that the Japanese claim that go was made more interesting by the abolition of the starting stones must be challenged.
为了其他人的利益,我们的上海朋友提出了这样一个论点:日本人认为围棋因为取消了座子而变得更有趣,这一说法必须受到挑战。
It is more a statement of faith than of specified facts, with a touch of nationalism creeping in. But since I myself have been pushing the claims of old Chinese go since MSO days, I can't
say that I disagree with him.
与其说是具体的事实,不如说是对信仰的陈述,带有一丝民族主义的气息。但由于我自己从MSO时代起就一直在推动中国古代围棋的主张,我不能说我不同意他的观点。
But I think the author needs to be more aware of the Japanese views on the matter. They are far from ignorant about the virtues of old Chinese go, and have written books about it, glowing
with admiration. Apart from Go Seigen, of course, I would mention Watanabe Hideo, Watanabe Yoshimichi, Yasunaga Hajime and, going back a little, Prof. Ogawa Takauji, whose son Kaizuka
Shigeki followed in his go footsteps (his other son, Yukawa Hideki, won Japan's first Nobel Prize, so they were hardly nonentity nerds).
但我认为作者需要更多地了解日本人对此事的看法。他们对中国古代围棋的美德绝非一无所知,他们写了许多关于围棋的书,赞不绝口。当然,除了吴清源之外,我还会提到渡边英雄、渡边吉一、山谷由纪夫
(Yasunaga Hajime)以及小川高二教授,他的儿子Kaizuka Shigeki追随他的围棋脚步(他的另一个儿子Yukawa Hideki获得了日本的第一个诺贝尔奖,所以他们很难算是无足轻重的书呆子)。
And since pgwq ends his piece with a Tang poem, let me mention the likes of Akiyama Kenji (a famous go reporter) who delve repeatedly into Chinese culture via go poems.
既然pgwq以一首唐诗结束了他的作品,让我提到像秋山健二(著名围棋记者)这样通过围棋诗反复钻研中国文化的人。
I would even add a couple of arguments that pqwq omits. One (which I have mentioned several times in recent posts) is that China has bequeathed us a mass of books and commented games, so
we can see the development of go theory in detail for ourselves. That alone makes the old Chinese scene much more interesting in many respects than the old Japanese scene, which is bereft
of such materials.
我甚至会添加一些pqwq忽略的参数。一个(我在最近的帖子中多次提到)是中国给我们留下了大量的书籍和对局评论,所以我们可以自己详细地看到围棋理论的发展。仅凭这一点,中国的老场景在许多方面就比日本
的老场景有趣得多,因为日本的老场景缺少这样的素材。
The other point I would make is that the four starting stones were absent in handicap games, so we can see how the old Chinese masters coped with open-corner josekis (hard to say for
amateurs like me, because group tax still applied, but there is no questioning the skill of the players overall (if we accept the host of favourable comments by modern pros).
我想说的另一点是,在让子比赛中,四枚座子是不存在的,所以我们可以看到古代中国大师如何应对空角的定式(对我这样的业余选手来说很难说,因为团体税仍然适用,但是没有人质疑棋手的整体技术(如果我们
接受了现代职业棋手的好评)。
Historically, there were some nastily nationalistic reasons why China accepted the Japanese version of go, but it's also true that some Chinese had the same cargo-cult fascination with the
Japanese version that we see today among AI fans. They wrote newspaper articles about it, so we can see for ourselves that they came to their not entirely under the yoke of Japanese
imperialism.
从历史上看,中国接受日式围棋有一些令人厌恶的民族主义原因,但也确实有一些中国人对日式围棋有着与我们今天在AI粉丝中看到的相同的货物崇拜。他们在报纸上写了文章,所以我们可以亲眼看到,他们并非完
全是在日本帝国主义的枷锁下走到自己的道路上来的。
注解:货物崇拜(英文:Cargo Cults,又译货物运动)是一种宗教形式,尤其出现于一些与世隔绝的落后土著之中。当货物崇拜者看见外来的先进科技物品,便会将之当作神祇般崇拜。
Ultimately, I'm not sure where this debate can go. It's fascinating if you are a fan of visiting the "Museum of Go", like me, but for modern go, I don't see how you can put the genie back
in the bottle.
归根结底,我不确定这场辩论能走向何方。如果你像我一样喜欢参观“围棋博物馆”,那就很有趣了,但是对于现代围棋,我不明白你怎么能把精灵放回瓶子里。
(It might be worth adding that this seems to be a cross-posting from another (?Chinese) forum).
(值得补充的是,这似乎是另一个中文?论坛的帖子)。
In China's mainstream Weiqi world, they also don't support it.
It's very difficult, but the point is to do it.
So, we are very grateful to the author of KataGo for providing the AI of group tax.