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 Post subject: 为什么说现代围棋就是“日式围棋”?
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:41 pm 
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为什么说现代围棋就是“日式围棋”?

(首发飞扬围棋)

1、围棋盘的形制
围棋盘的方罫,在之前的帖子里论述过,长方形就是不对的。
吴清源说过:围棋的前身是天文学工具。但没有进一步论述......

我们在座子围棋群里研究过,简单的说,方罫变成了长方形,完全与古代围棋棋制不符。
这从古代文献资料、出土与现存文物都可以看出来。汉代班固《弈旨》所谓”局必方正,象地则也“。
简单的说,围棋的前身是天文学工具,围棋盘就是一个棋心为原点的大地坐标系。

棋心又称为太极。作为天文学工具,在太极立杆测日影。
大地坐标系的轴组成的方罫,怎么可能是长方形的?
实证可以看中国的出土棋盘,也可以看日本正仓院的唐时期棋盘的形制。
(这不是唐朝皇帝送给日本的,明显是巡将围棋的形制)

今年年初,我还特意做过带五岳定位标志的亚克力座子围棋棋盘。
在上海的宜芝多面包店举行座子围棋比赛的时候,送给了组织者赞助者青松。

围棋盘上的“九星”是日本形制,现在有些人,动不动就拿围棋盘上的“九星”作为中国传统文化来讲,似乎是很有问题啊。

在上世纪80-90年代的时候,我国的围棋盘上还有五岳定位的标志,因为我的第一副玻璃围棋,就是这个形制的。

上海棋牌博物馆有陈列的围棋盘文物(似乎是陈毅元帅的遗物,具体记不清了),就是有五岳定位标志的围棋盘。

至于围棋子,有人研究过,双面凸的子唐代也有。

2、围棋规则方面

这方面,主要在于300多年前日式围棋废弃了中国传统围棋的“座子”与“基本眼位非空”这两条。

先看看2个日本人对于日本围棋的自我评价,
这大概就是“中国是围棋的生母,日本是围棋的养母”谬论的由来。
注意谬论产生的年代,无疑就是配合着军事侵略的文化侵略舆论。

安藤如意与川端康成这样认为:
安藤如意在《坐隐谈丛》(一九一○)中说:“从中国输入的文物中,影响至深者首推围棋。三百年前日本便远远凌驾于中国之上。”

著名小说家川端康成在其作品《名人》中说:
提起传统,围棋也是从中国传来的。不过真正的围棋是在日本形成的。无论是现在还是三百年前,中国的棋艺同日本无法比拟。
围棋的高深是由日本人摸索出来的。这与昔日由中国传来的许多文物在中国已经相当发达不同,围棋只有在日本才完全发展起来。
……据说,在中国人们把围棋看成是仙心的游戏,充满了天地之元气,三百六十一路包含着天地自然和人生哲理。
然而,开拓这种智慧之奥秘的,正是日本。日本的精神,超过了模仿。
Attachment:
jpwq2.jpg
jpwq2.jpg [ 267.64 KiB | Viewed 1505 times ]


备注:
按上述“三百年前日本便远远凌驾于中国之上”,时间大致是在1610年左右。
日本的算砂1559年生(明代嘉靖三十八年),
他取消了传自中国的围棋形制:1、取消了座子,2、取消了基本眼位非空的准则。

本因坊算砂是日莲宗的僧人,法名日海。......
1588年,织田信长的继任者丰臣秀吉组织了一场大型比赛,将围棋选手的排名系统化。
作为织田信长的围棋老师的高僧日海赢得了这场比赛,丰臣秀吉下令从此开始,其他棋手与日海对局应执黑或被让子。
(以上一段节选自:https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sansa)


整理古棋棋谱的规则专家陈祖源,曾发文批驳过“中国是围棋的生母,日本是围棋的养母”这个谬论,
相关文章大家可在网络上查询。

胡煜清 陈祖源:晚清中日围棋水平对比研究
http://sports.sina.com.cn/go/2020-09-03 ... 3514.shtml

节选:
"回顾从明代中期正德年间,开始有比较明确的弈坛记载,四百年间,围棋水平一代高过一代,从未间断,
即便是明清交界的战乱都没有产生大的影响,乾嘉时期虽然略有萧条,但其代表人物的水平还高于十八国手。
中国围棋清末之没落倒底是什么原因?  弈道之兴衰根本是时代环境,所谓国运兴,棋运兴。..."

胡、陈二位的上述论述,与安藤如意、川端康成的狂言,对比强烈。

现在的中国棋界实质上采用日本的棋制(除了不痛不痒的数子法外)。

再看这3个贴子吧。

座子围棋规则的研究成果展示
http://www.flygo.net/bbs/forum.php?mod= ... tid=113899

批驳日本的棋史谎言:“取消座子增加了围棋的变化,使围棋得到极大的发展。”
http://www.flygo.net/bbs/forum.php?mod= ... tid=113029

AI的第一个选择点和正方形的内切圆
https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18037


3、围棋的“礼仪”方面
就讲一点,日本的围棋礼仪,第一手必须下右上方,说这是对上手的尊重。
这到底是在说什么呢?我们为什么要遵循日人制定的表面的呆板的围棋礼仪呢?


4、日本围棋界在欧美的深耕,围棋的英语术语方面
不详细论述了。去这个网址看看就知道了。https://senseis.xmp.net/

综上所述,现代围棋本质上就是“日式围棋”。


那么,在新的时代,怎么展示对于中国传统文化的自信?

像某些人那样抹黑古棋古棋人,再踏上一只脚吗?
还是像某些人一样,扯虎皮张大旗,把陈毅元帅挂在嘴边,而实际行动上却在“精日媚日”?
还是继续漠视,掩耳盗铃般的说:“我们现在所下的就是中国围棋,不是日本围棋”,照转继续“围”。

这是个问题。

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China

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 Post subject: Re: 为什么说现代围棋就是“日式围棋”?
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:08 pm 
Honinbo

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Many people on this forum may know or be interested in Chinese. However, your post will be more widely received here if it is written in English.

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 Post subject: Re: 为什么说现代围棋就是“日式围棋”?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:27 am 
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By Baidu translate:

Why is modern go "Japanese go"?

(first post at flying Weiqi)

1. The shape of go board

The square of go board, in the previous post, discussed that rectangle is not right.

Wu Qingyuan said: Weiqi was formerly an astronomical tool. But there is no further discussion

We have studied in the QQ group of seated stones Weiqi. In short, Small square(方罫) has become a rectangle, which is totally inconsistent with the ancient go system.

This can be seen from ancient documents, unearthed and existing cultural relics. In the Han Dynasty, Ban gu(班固) 《弈旨》 is called "the board must be square, and the elephant ground is also".

In short, Weiqi was formerly an astronomical tool, and the go board was a geodetic coordinate system with the chess heart as the origin.

Chess heart is also called Taiji. As an astronomical tool, the sun and shadow are measured in Taiji.

How can the square of the axis of the geodetic coordinate system be rectangular?

The empirical study can be seen from the unearthed chessboard in China, and the shape of the board in Tang Dynasty in ZhengCangYuan(正仓院), Japan.

(this is not from the emperor of Tang Dynasty to Japan, obviously the form of weiqi by the tour general)

At the beginning of this year, I also made a special game board of yakli Weiqi with five Yue positioning mark.

At the table go competition in yizhiduo bakery in Shanghai, Qingsong, the organizer's sponsor, was given.

The "nine stars" on the go board are Japanese. Now some people, if they can't move, they can take the nine stars on the go board as Chinese traditional culture. It seems that there are some problems.

In the 1980s-90's, there were five mountain positioning marks on the go board in China, because my first glass go was made of this shape.

The Shanghai chess and card Museum has the exhibition of weiqi plate relics (it seems to be the remains of Marshal Chen Yi, which can not be remembered clearly), which is the weiqi plate with five Yue positioning marks.

As for go, some people have studied it, and the double convex son of Tang Dynasty also has.

2. Go rules

In this respect, it is mainly that over 300 years ago, Japanese go abandoned the two traditional Chinese go "seats" and "basic eye position is not territory".

First, I want to look at the self-evaluation of Japanese go by two Japanese,

This is probably the origin of the fallacy that "China is the birth mother of go, and Japan is the foster mother of go".

The era of attention to fallacy is undoubtedly the cultural aggression public opinion which is in line with military aggression.

Ando Ruyi and kawabataya Kangcheng believe that:

"From the cultural relics imported from China, the people who influence the deep push go are the first," Ando Ruyi said in "the cluster of sitting hidden talks" (1910). Three hundred years ago, Japan was far above China. "

In his famous novel celebrity, kawabataya Kangcheng, a famous novelist, said:

Go is also handed down from China when it comes to tradition. But the real go was made in Japan. Now and 300 years ago, China's chess skills are incomparable to Japan.

The depth of go is explored by the Japanese. This is different from many cultural relics from China which have been developed in China. Go can only be developed completely in Japan.

... it is said that in China, Weiqi is regarded as a game of immortal heart, full of the spirit of heaven and earth. The 361 road contains the natural and life philosophy of heaven and earth.

However, it is Japan that explores the mystery of this wisdom. The spirit of Japan is more than imitation.

Attachment:

jpwq2.jpg


remarks:

According to the above-mentioned "300 years ago, Japan was far above China", and the time was about 1610.

The sand calculation in Japan was born in 1559 (Jiajing 38 years in Ming Dynasty),

He cancelled the form of go passed from China: 1. The seat was cancelled; 2. The basic non empty eye position criterion was cancelled.

The Buddhist of the Japanese lotus sect is known as the sea of Japan

In 1588, takesuo Toyoto, the successor of Zhitian, organized a large competition to systematize the ranking of go players.

As the chief of Zhitian, the senior monk rihai, won the game. Fengsuuki ordered that from then on, other players should be black or let off against Japan and sea.

(the above section is selected from: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sansa

Chen Zuyuan, a rule expert in the compilation of ancient chess chess, once wrote a criticism about the fallacy that "China is the birth mother of go, and Japan is the foster mother of go",

Relevant articles can be queried on the Internet.

Huyuqing, chenzuyuan: a comparative study on the level of weiqi between China and Japan in the late Qing Dynasty

http://sports.sina.com.cn/go/2020-09-03 ... 3514.shtml

Excerpt:

"It is recalled that there have been relatively clear records of chess circles since the middle period of Ming Dynasty, and in 400 years, the level of weiqi was higher than that of the previous generation, and it never stopped,

Even the war between Ming and Qing dynasties had no great influence. Although the Qianjia period was a little depressed, the level of its representative figures was higher than that of the 18th National.

What is the reason why the decline of Chinese go in the late Qing Dynasty is down? The rise and fall of chess is the basic environment of the times“

The above-mentioned discussions of Hu and Chen are in strong contrast with the fanatics of Ando Ruyi and kawabataya Kangcheng.

The present Chinese chess world adopts Japanese chess system in essence (except for the number method which is not painful).

Look at these three more posts.

The research results of the game rules

http://www.flygo.net/bbs/forum.php?mod= ... tid=113899

Refuting the Japanese chess history lies: "canceling the position increases the change of go, and makes go develop greatly."

http://www.flygo.net/bbs/forum.php?mod= ... tid=113029

AI's first selection point and the inner tangent circle of the square

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18037

3. The etiquette aspect of go

To put it a little, Japanese go etiquette, the first hand must be down the upper right, said that this is respect for the upper hand.

What is this talking about? Why should we follow the seemingly rigid go etiquette that Japanese people have made?

4. Japanese go world in Europe and America, go in English terms

It's not detailed. Go to this website and see it. https://senseis.xmp.net/

In conclusion, modern go is essentially "Japanese go".

So, in the new era, how to show confidence in Chinese traditional culture?

Like some people, black the ancient chess players, and then step on a foot?

Or like some people, pulling tiger skin and Zhang Daqi, hung Marshal Chen Yi on his mouth, but actually in action in "Spiritual Japanese and fawning on Japan"?

Still continue to ignore, hide the bell like saying: "what we are playing now is China go, not Japanese go", and continue to "encircle".

This is a problem.

_________________
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


This post by pgwq was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, ElomKW
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