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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #101 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:02 pm 
Judan

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CDavis7M wrote:
All I'm saying is that the rules don't say that you can pass in the beginning/middle of the game.

I'm confused about the backlash.


One can make an argument in favour of pass being prohibited during opening and middle game. Not because of the rules of play but because of the tournament rules contained in J1989. The required spirit of good sense and mutual trust, or sportsmanlike behaviour as Western tournament rules might say, implies that "compete in skill" and the aim of the game in §1 (to be corrected by prisoners) requires players to attempt seeking good moves, an early pass is an obviously bad move so is prohibited.

However, you have claimed more than that: the single passes might not occur until a game stop. This is where you get opposition.

Old Japanese rules had and Korean rules had and maybe still have no or no clear passes or single passes. J1989 change this, although the wording is still ambiguous.

Quote:
It's not like I'm trying to argue something completely bogus like saying that the Japanese rules are bad


They are:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/j1989c.html
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/wagcflaw.html

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because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory.


This is all real-world Japanese rules. (Some badly programmed go server rules, such as KGS-Japanese Rules, differ. Maybe you have been under their false impression when judging on real-world rules.)

(WAGC Rules demand clarification of "in the end of the game" because there is a special procedure for optional but recommended removal such dead stones when the game is about to end. If the players don't remove, then afterwards they may not remove.)

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #102 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:11 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
CDavis7M wrote:
All I'm saying is that the rules don't say that you can pass in the beginning/middle of the game.

I'm confused about the backlash.
...
However, you have claimed more than that: the single passes might not occur until a game stop. This is where you get opposition.
Quote:
because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory.

This is all real-world Japanese rules.

BTW, one thing I'm not sure if even Robert is aware of is that "no territory in seki" (where "no dead stone removal from seki" rule come from) is more than just caprice of Japanese rules.

It's kind of a theoretical necessity for pure territory scoring because of some issues with game end and scoring that could otherwise arise in some shapes. Hybrid scoring (pass stone playout) rules have no such problem and need no seki exception because they are already in area phase by then.

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #103 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:27 am 
Judan

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What is "pure territory scoring"?

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #104 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:48 am 
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Not using area phase (pass stone playout).

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #105 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:53 am 
Judan

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I am afraid I do not understand. Please explain positively!

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #106 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:00 am 
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Territory scoring that scores final positions directly, based on string L/D and hypothetical play, without relying on pass stone playout (and scoring such later position).

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #107 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:25 am 
Judan

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Ok. Now please explain "It's kind of a theoretical necessity for pure territory scoring because of some issues with game end and scoring that could otherwise arise in some shapes."

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #108 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:36 am 
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The problem is with one sided kos but it would be long and OT here. I'll try to post tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #109 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:54 pm 
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Note the superko rule doesn't require keeping information of all previous board states, just the ones that follow capture. Hmm, does that mean the Draw if Three Repititions rule in Chess is actually bad game design?

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #110 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:37 pm 
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简单就是最好的。如果一定要定复杂的规则,那么奥卡姆剃刀又丢弃到哪里去了呢?
在中国古代棋局中,进入循环状态就判定为和棋。

Simple is best. If complex rules must be set, where is Occam's razor?
In ancient China WeiQi, entering the cycle state is judged as a draw.

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #111 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:52 pm 
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Elom0 wrote:
Note the superko rule doesn't require keeping information of all previous board states, just the ones that follow capture. Hmm, does that mean the Draw if Three Repititions rule in Chess is actually bad game design?

You do realize that the Draw if Three Repetitions rule is actually the opposite of a superko like rule? The superko rules declare a particular move (that exact move that creates the repetition to be illegal, forcing a loss on the offending party, whereas the chess draw rule is equivalent akin to having no superko rule, that the game can be drawn as a result of forcing a repetition.

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #112 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:28 pm 
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简单就是最好的。如果一定要定复杂的规则,那么奥卡姆剃刀又丢弃到哪里去了呢?
在中国古代棋局中,进入循环状态就判定为和棋。
Simple is best. If complex rules must be set, where is Occam's razor?
In ancient China WeiQi, entering the cycle state is judged as a draw.

如何让棋局跳出循环状态?
How to make the game out of the cycle?

1.简单“劫”的规则——强制改出循环状态,禁止棋局结束,让棋局进行下去。
1. The simple rule of "Ko"-force out of the cycle state, prohibit the end of the game, let the game go on.

2.和棋终局,“三劫循环、四劫循环”等情况下,如果对局双方都不改出循环状态——和棋终局。
2. Draw.In the case of "three-ko cycle, four-ko cycle" and so on, if both sides of the game do not change the state of the cycle.Draw, the game is over.

3.判断之后棋局终止,判断之后改出循环状态——判断终局。
3.1 普通的终局状态:棋盘已下满,棋子溢出,双方连续互交俘子,俘获棋子的差值不会有任何改变。
3.2 特殊终局状态:俘获棋子的差值不变,或呈一方增长的趋势,且这个趋势不会有任何改变。
3.3 其它终局状态:欢迎补充。


3. After the judgment, the game is terminated.
after the judgment, the cycle state is stoped, the game is over.

3.1 ordinary final state: the board is full, the stone pieces are overflowing, the two sides continue to exchange captives, and the difference between the captured stone pieces will not change.

3.2 Special final state: the difference of captured stone pieces remains unchanged, or shows a growing trend, and this trend will not change.

3.3 other final status: welcome to add.


see:管窥中国古代围棋的设计理念(Chinese)
On the Design concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi
at: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/629374537

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 Post subject: Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des
Post #113 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:35 pm 
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Elom0 wrote:
Note the superko rule doesn't require keeping information of all previous board states, just the ones that follow capture.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this does not seem obvious to me. How would you prove or verify it?

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