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 Post subject: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese)
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 7:16 pm 
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管窥中国古代围棋的设计理念(中文原创)
On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese Go (Original by Chinese)

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/629374537

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Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #2 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 12:24 am 
Judan

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What is the text contents for those of us not reading Chinese?

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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #3 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:42 am 
Oza

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Quote:
What is the text contents for those of us not reading Chinese?


I don't think you'll get anything useful out of the text as is. Essentially, to my way of interpreting it, it is an attempt to derive the rules from an organic consideration of ancient Chinese astronomy and philosophy as well as mathematics, rather than as a purely mathematical system. It is therefore necessary to be familiar with a vast array of background material that mostly has nothing to do with go. That is not entirely impossible for a non-Chinese speaker. If you are prepared to put in the hours reading the many-tomed Science & Civilisation in China by Joseph Needham, you would be well equipped to make your first steps.

But then you would probably come up against the problem of having to read classical Chinese go texts or modern Chinese books or PhD theses by go experts which have mostly not been rendered in English yet.

There are competing views within China, and I don't feel either inclined or qualified to comment on them, interesting though they undoubtedly are. That said, as a general point, I note that there is so much material out there, that you could probably find something somewhere to justify any point of view, such as go was invented by little green men. Accordingly, Occam's Razor always appeals to me.

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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #4 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 2:50 am 
Judan

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Do such authors attempt to explain the origin of go, just of Chinese rules, convince other nations of superiority of Chinese rules or do they try to suggest how Chinese rules might be invented afresh if history started today?

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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #5 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 4:26 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Do such authors attempt to explain the origin of go, just of Chinese rules, convince other nations of superiority of Chinese rules or do they try to suggest how Chinese rules might be invented afresh if history started today?


1、离开了围棋创生的历史土壤,去侈谈所谓“纯数学、终极的”围棋规则,将毫无意义。

It is meaningless to talk about the so-called "ultimate pure mathematics" rules of WeiQi without the historical soil of its creation.

2、我赞赏 Cassandra 的观点,基于“空”的唐宋数路围棋规则是非常优秀的规则(日式规则基于唐宋规则,除了私自篡改规则之处),陈先生在那篇文章中割裂历史来谈围棋规则,确实是明显的错误。

I appreciate Cassandra's viewpoint. My opinion is that the Tang and Song WeiQi rules based on "territory" are very excellent rules (Japanese rules are based on Tang and Song rules, except for those that tamper with the rules). Mr. Chen's split history in that article to talk about Go rules is indeed a clear mistake.

3、您可以尝试网页翻译来阅读我的文章。
You can try a web translation to read my article.


我的文章要点是:一方一手,轮流落子,不可放弃,不能落子,可以交俘。终局状态,获得俘子多的一方胜利。
The main point of my article is: take turns to play, pass is not allowed, if can not play a move on the board, hand over a prisoner(overflow). In the final state, the side with the most prisoners wins.

The stone/stones that is/are not breathing(liberty) must be lifted from the board and captured by the opponent.
The concept of "eye position, two eyes live" is a subsequent development. An example of how stone/stones with one liberty can live:
......
3、the end of WeiQi game:
1. Ordinary "ko" rules
Normal "ko" rule-forced to change out of the cycle, prohibit the end, let the game go on.
1.1 The common "ko" rule of Central Plains WeiQi-"hot stone" can not be taken away immediately, need to wait for "hot stone" cooling.
1.2 The common "ko" rule of Tibetan WeiQi--"hot territory" can not be placed immediately
The "empty" just picked up the chess piece is hot territory,"hot territory" can not immediately drop the piece, need to wait for "hot territory" cooling, completely different from the thinking of Central Plains WeiQi, so expansively solve the circulation problem of ordinary "ko".

2. tie game
In the case of three or four ko cycles, if neither side changes the cycle state- a tie game.

3. The final judgment
After the judgment, the cycle state is changed-the end.

3.1 Normal end state: the board is full, the pieces overflow, the two sides continue to exchange prisoners, the difference between the captured pieces will not change.
Of course, it is possible to judge the victory or defeat without going down to the situation of "two overflows", or even without finishing the dames -for example: Note that the so-called "empty" is a valid option to acquire a captive.

3.2 Special end state: the difference between the captured pieces is unchanged, or the trend is increasing, and this trend will not change.

3.3 Other end-states: Welcome to add.

(by tencent transmart https://transmart.qq.com)

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Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China


Last edited by pgwq on Tue May 16, 2023 3:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #6 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:45 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
I don't think you'll get anything useful out of the text as is... such as go was invented by little green men...


你暴露了你的立场,并试图改变别人的观点。让别人自己来判断吧。
我并不想妄加猜测,但这是否与你的利益有关呢?

You expose your position and try to change someone else's opinion. Let others judge for themselves.
I don't want to speculate, but is it in your interest?

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Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China

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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #7 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 10:43 pm 
Judan

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pgwq wrote:
The stone/stones that is/are not breathing(liberty) must be lifted from the board and captured by the opponent. [...]
1.1 The common "ko" rule of Central Plains WeiQi-"hot stone" can not be taken away immediately, need to wait for "hot stone" cooling.


I understand that you have used automatic translation. Therefore, I cannot know whether "breathing" and "hot stone" occur in your original text or are invented by the translation. Nevertheless, I find it curious that these terms (or "breaths") also appear in the vocabulary of Ing Rules and their official commentaries. Therefore, I wonder whether Chinese (or Taiwanese, Tibetan or Sikkim) players speaking about Chinese-style or Tibetan rules use the following terms or their plural forms:

- "breathing" instead of the Western, maybe Japanese-derived "liberty",
- "hot stone" instead of the Western, Japanese-derived "ko".

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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #8 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 11:10 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Therefore, I wonder whether Chinese (or Taiwanese, Tibetan or Sikkim) players speaking about Chinese-style or Tibetan rules use the following terms or their plural forms:

- "breathing" instead of the Western, maybe Japanese-derived "liberty",
- "hot stone" instead of the Western, Japanese-derived "ko".

没有气的
without air (to breathe) = without "breathing"
This is equivalent to "liberty".

“热子”
"hot stone"
To my understanding, "hot stone" is NOT equivalent to "ko", but refers to the stone(s) that has (have) JUST captured a single opponent's stone.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------+
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O O |
$$ . . . O X 2 |
$$ . . O X X 1 |
$$ . . O X O X |
$$ . . O O O X |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

白1"扑",黑2提时,白方不能立1位反提.
When White 1 "attacks" and Black 2 captures, White cannot recapture at the point of 1.
而要先找劫材,待黑方应劫材后,白方才在1位提数子.
Instead, White must first look for a ko threat, and only after Black has responded to the ko threat, White will capture with a move at 1 .

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


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 Post subject: Re: On the Design Concept of Ancient Chinese WeiQi ( Chinese
Post #9 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 11:54 pm 
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1.
氣(traditional Chinese )
气(Simplified Chinese)

https://hanyu.baidu.com/zici/s?wd=%E6%B0%94

in English: air,breath
igo in English: liberty

2.
呼吸 breathe,breathing

https://hanyu.baidu.com/zici/s?wd=%E5%91%BC%E5%90%B8

人与动物(围棋棋子)的生存依赖于“呼吸”,呼吸什么?气。
The survival of human beings and animals(WeiQi stone/stones) depends on "breathing". Breathe on what? 气.

3.
Central Plains WeiQi: 热子(hot stone) - Corresponding to common WeiQi ko rules
"hot stone" is NOT equivalent to "ko", but refers to a single stone that has JUST captured a single opponent's stone.


Tibetan WeiQi: 热空(hot territory) - Corresponding to Tibetan WeiQi ko(and for more situtation) rules
"hot territory" refers to empty point/points that has JUST pick up one or more stones.

In Tibetan Weiqi:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------+
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O O |
$$ . . . O X 2 |
$$ . . O X X 1 |
$$ . . O X O X |
$$ . . O O O X |
$$ . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

白1"扑",黑2提时,白方不能立即在1位反提.
When White 1 "attacks" and Black 2 captures, White cannot recapture at the point of 1.(NOW,position 1 is hot territory)
而要先找劫材,待黑方应劫材后,白方才在1位提数子.
Instead, White must first look for a ko threat, and only after Black has responded to the ko threat, White will capture with a move at 1 .

About "hot stone" of Central Plains WeiQi, this is what I learned from an old WeiQi friend.
As for "hot territory" of Tibetan WeiQi that's probably my term.


4.


https://hanyu.baidu.com/zici/s?from=ala ... =%E5%8A%AB

in English: Robbery,plunder or catastrophe
igo in English / Japanese pronunciation: ko

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Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China

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