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Questionable strategy and tactics?
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Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Questionable strategy and tactics?
I have a freind who I recently introduced to go however I don't think his strategy is allowed or at least socially acceptable. I started the game normally by spreading out across the board and his entire strategy was to surrender control of the board to me and wait until I ran out of pieces and inable to play. After I ran out of pieces, he proceded to attack every piece that was relatively remote on board with me having no means to defend them. Is this allowed and if it is, is it wrong if I need to grab extra to keep playing?

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File comment: This is how our second game ended. I was practically forced to fill in all of my territory to prevent loss due to these questionable tactics.
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Author:  kirkmc [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
I've never heard of this. Technically, the only way this can happen, if you have the correct number of stones (180 white, 181 black), is if there are one or more long kos.
Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
Unfortunately, none of the people I play with seem to grasp the true concept of the game and focus all effort on combat, not territory. Many stones were captured and that helped lead to me running out of them.
Author:  amnal [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
AlanG2013 wrote:
I have a freind who I recently introduced to go however I don't think his strategy is allowed or at least socially acceptable. I started the game normally by spreading out across the board and his entire strategy was to surrender control of the board to me and wait until I ran out of pieces and inable to play. After I ran out of pieces, he proceded to attack every piece that was relatively remote on board with me having no means to defend them. Is this allowed and if it is, is it wrong if I need to grab extra to keep playing?


Running out of stones isn't part of the game. If you don't have enough, generally you trade prisoners to get some back (x white stones for x black stones is obviously points neutral).

It looks like you're both relative beginners, so have you considered playing on a smaller board, if one is available? This would avoid the stones number problem whilst also making it easier to get a grasp of things - your full board game looks like a small board game that got bigger, and it's easier to see how to improve on the small board alone.

EDIT: Also, you say 'practically forced to fill in my territory'. If you play in your territory, this is presumably because he played there too himself? This should be points neutral, he gives you a point by playing there, you lose a point by playing to stop him. It sounds like you're misunderstanding a counting rule, perhaps you could give more information on how you play towards the end and count?
Author:  amnal [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
AlanG2013 wrote:
Unfortunately, none of the people I play with seem to grasp the true concept of the game and focus all effort on combat, not territory. Many stones were captured and that helped lead to me running out of them.


The object of the game is to win, don't forget that. (Well, and the social object, to have fun...but as a game winning is the aim ;) ). What they're doing isn't actually wrong.
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
In theory you have an infinite amount of stones. And by exchanging prisoners 180 on each side are enough in practice.
And personally I'd stop playing with somebody who pulled that on me.
Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
amnal wrote:
AlanG2013 wrote:
Unfortunately, none of the people I play with seem to grasp the true concept of the game and focus all effort on combat, not territory. Many stones were captured and that helped lead to me running out of them.


The object of the game is to win, don't forget that. (Well, and the social object, to have fun...but as a game winning is the aim ;) ). What they're doing isn't actually wrong.


I understand that winning is the object I only question is that is winning by any means acceptable. I used every stone to prevent my large area from falling and I feel that never should have been required. I can't help but feel the game should end when the lines are drawn and not require that I turn my entire territory into a twisted network of eyes.
Author:  Monadology [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
Get strong positions in all the corners (and maybe sides). Then play the center point. Then pass. That should use up no more than 20 of your stones.

If he passes, you win (I'm pretty sure, at least). If he plays, you can attack and start surrounding territory or killing him in the process. By the time you've run out of stones it's unlikely he will be able to successfully invade or attack your stones.
Author:  kirkmc [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
AlanG2013 wrote:
amnal wrote:
AlanG2013 wrote:
Unfortunately, none of the people I play with seem to grasp the true concept of the game and focus all effort on combat, not territory. Many stones were captured and that helped lead to me running out of them.


The object of the game is to win, don't forget that. (Well, and the social object, to have fun...but as a game winning is the aim ;) ). What they're doing isn't actually wrong.


I understand that winning is the object I only question is that is winning by any means acceptable. I used every stone to prevent my large area from falling and I feel that never should have been required. I can't help but feel the game should end when the lines are drawn and not require that I turn my entire territory into a twisted network of eyes.


Unless your opponent threatens to live or to kill you, you don't need to respond to their every move. Just pass and let them keep playing, as long as you're sure you're safe.

In any case, this isn't how the game is played...
Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
My opponent waited until I was inable to move then surgically tore my territory appart from deep inside my lines. I was physically incapable of defending my territory. My answer to this was to go find more stones because I felt it seemed unfair that I should lose because I have no pieces left to play.
Author:  oren [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
You're never intended to run out of pieces in Go. Most complete sets come with 181 black and 180 white. If you have that, you will never run out if you do prisoner exchange. If you need more pieces, work out a system where you can hand over some other token and take back prisoners that you can then use to play with.

At this point, it looks like you should be playing more on 9x9 and 13x13 to understand when you have to play. Passing is very often a good option.
Author:  amnal [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
AlanG2013 wrote:
My opponent waited until I was inable to move then surgically tore my territory appart from deep inside my lines. I was physically incapable of defending my territory. My answer to this was to go find more stones because I felt it seemed unfair that I should lose because I have no pieces left to play.


That's not necessarily rude (if your opponent things running out of stones is part of the game), but it is definitely wrong. Getting more stones is the right thing to do. You should hopefully be able to convince him that invading randomly and not expecting to succeed gains nothing except prolonging the game - at which point it becomes rude for him to continue.

It is not rude, of course, if it works.
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
The amount of stones a player can use is essentially unlimited. On a 19x19 board, 180 stones per player usually suffice, but there are instances of games taking more moves than that. Then it is customary to exchange prisoners. This is practically always possible, because the board can only take 360 stones (361 intersections minus one that needs to be a liberty).

One advice, though: play on a smaller board at first, at least until you get a grasp of the rules. Playing in the opponent's territory does not lose him points.
Author:  palapiku [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
AlanG2013 wrote:
My opponent waited until I was inable to move then surgically tore my territory appart from deep inside my lines. I was physically incapable of defending my territory. My answer to this was to go find more stones because I felt it seemed unfair that I should lose because I have no pieces left to play.
You seem to think there's a rule that says if you have no more stones, you have to pass. This is wrong. There's no such rule. You made it up. Without checking what the real rule says.

This makes me suspect that there might be other rules you made up, too. I think you should carefully check if your understanding of the entire rules of go is correct.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
Let's keep it simple. This is a rules question. Running out of stones is not part of the rules. If your opponent will not exchange captives, use pennies, pieces of paper, anything.

As for social acceptability, your opponent is trying to win under the rules as he understands them. :) Rather than question his ethics, I would inform him about the rules.
Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
Thank all of you for the assistance and as to my knowledge of the rules, I'd like to think I have a fair understanding of the game.
Author:  AlanG2013 [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
palapiku wrote:
AlanG2013 wrote:
My opponent waited until I was inable to move then surgically tore my territory appart from deep inside my lines. I was physically incapable of defending my territory. My answer to this was to go find more stones because I felt it seemed unfair that I should lose because I have no pieces left to play.
You seem to think there's a rule that says if you have no more stones, you have to pass. This is wrong. There's no such rule. You made it up. Without checking what the real rule says.

This makes me suspect that there might be other rules you made up, too. I think you should carefully check if your understanding of the entire rules of go is correct.


The only reason I felt I had to pass is because I had no stones to place and was unclear if I was able to get more to defend myself.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
Play 9x9! Don't assume it's not go: it is go, and it's a lot of fun and best for learning (as a beginner). You can print out a board to play on:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/1puh8x4tc0/goban-bw9x9.pdf

If you and your friend play 10 9x9 games I think all your problems will resolve themselves naturally.
Author:  willemien [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
theoreticly all the answers are correct (off course)

but if you just keep passing you also win (all your stones are safe so what is the problem :D )

if there were 181 black and 180 white stones you should both run out of stones more or less at the same moment.
Did you count them. (and made sure black has less stones than white) :evil:

I think you gave the stones you captured back to your opponent, don't do that anymore , it is YOU who supplied him with an infinite amout of stones.




More creative solutions. :twisted:

- Buy an extra set of stones , that should sove all lack of stiones problemms (if you have 359 stones you cannot run out of stones)

- Make a new rule: if you run out of stones you may take one of your own stones of the board and play it elsewhere. (you could remove a lot of stones that were not necesary for your groups), I think i like this variation :shock:

Unrelated
What a dark board. It is nice playing on such a dark surface?
Author:  shapenaji [ Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questionable strategy and tactics?
This is one of the reasons I strongly recommend area scoring, he's welcome to go through and capture everything on the board, but it won't change the value of those regions...

So here's how area scoring works (basically), instead of getting a point for each spot of territory and a point for each enemy prisoner, You get a point for each spot of territory and each stone that you have on the board. (The score difference will be approximately the same (within 1 point)

When you capture stones, just throw them directly back into your opponent's bowl, (Remember, only stones on the board matter). Feel free to capture any stones that your opponent contends aren't dead at the end of the game (since under these rules proving that they're dead costs you nothing).

Then at the end of the game, (you only need to count either white or black, not both), remove all dead stones, count the territory for that color, and then count the number of those stones on the board (by moving them into groups of 10).

Since there are 361 points to divvy up, if you have 181 or more points, then your opponent must have 180, so a 1 point victory, if you have 191, then they must have 170, so it would be a 21 point victory.
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