It is currently Tue May 18, 2021 6:14 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 127 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #1 Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:15 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 263
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Liked others: 32
Was liked: 10
Rank: KGS 5-kyu
GD Posts: 60
(Go sure does produce some strange statements taken out of context, doesn't it? Maybe I should start a new thread, "things that are ordinary to say about go but horrifying to say about the world".)

I was just curious to hear what people think about the rule banning suicide, especially from those who like the rule. Personally, I don't really see the need for it. If the intent is to stop players from making silly/pointless moves, it doesn't really accomplish that goal, since there is no rule against, for example, playing your first move on T19. Moreover, I like the idea of being able to use it occasionally as a ko threat. Of course there are some rare cases where it can even change the status of a group, but as far as I know those cases are even rarer than triple ko.

And how about how it would be received by new players? I think I would prefer learning "you can play here to kill yourself, but that would be a bad move because..." instead of "you can't play here because suicide is not allowed by the rules."

Finally, I just prefer the fluid, flowing feel suicide produces better than the feeling of frozenness created by its prohibition.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #2 Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:49 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1435
Location: California
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 169
Rank: Out of practice
GD Posts: 1104
KGS: fwiffo
I agree. It removes a small amount of complexity from the game and adds a small complexity to the rules. Why would you want to do that?

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #3 Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:08 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 80
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 7
Rank: KGS 2K
KGS: redponey
IGS: redponey
DGS: redponey
OGS: redponey
Kaya handle: redponey
I've always thought banning suicide was dumb. The only real affect allowing suicide has on the game, as far as I can tell, is to add a few more potential ko threats in certain situations, which seems fine to me.

_________________
RedPoney Carpenter
kgs/igs/ogs/dgs: redponey
igolocal.net

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #4 Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:24 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 451
Location: Portland, OR USA
Liked others: 257
Was liked: 287
KGS: wms
Count me in the pro-suicide group. There's just no reason for the rule.

When I teach my daughters the game, I tell them "No, you can't move there, your stones would have no liberties and be dead." But that's advice, not a rule. I suspect that the "no-suicide" rule came from such advice being miscontstrued at some point in the distant past. If so, then the fact that any rules are that way is just a big mistake.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #5 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:49 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1072
Location: Stratford-upon-Avon, England
Liked others: 33
Was liked: 72
Rank: 5K KGS
GD Posts: 1165
KGS: Dogen
Suicide is illogical. If we say that when stones are surrounded they are removed from the board, then suicide would involve both making the suicidal move _and_ removing the stones at the same move. Since ever move involves either placing a stone on the board or passing, then removing stones on a different move would mean that one player makes a move without doing either of those.

A ruleset should be elegant; adding suicide is not elegant for the above reasons.

_________________
My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #6 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:06 am 
Oza

Posts: 2921
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3998
There is no suicide rule or a need for one unless you write a ruleset badly.

If you vaguely say "you must make a move or pass", of course it is possible to imagine a move being various things. But if you are Chinese or Japanese, the word for move implies rather strongly that you place a stone and leave it there(it "adheres"). With or without suicide you then need a further single rule that tells you that strings of stones cannot remain on the board with no liberties and so have to be removed at once, but in the case of such removal enemy strings are removed first (which means the placed stone has liberties).

That's a mere two rules under Oriental rulesets. To capture this viewpoint in English we need to get away from the chess concept of "make a move" to something like "on his turn, each player must either place and leave a stone on the board or pass".

If you re-invent the rules of go to include suicide, you need to add two rules: one to allow it and one to disallow it in the case of repetition of board position. Hardly elegant.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:13 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 281
Location: France
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 25
Rank: yes
Don't forget that without the "suicide is forbidden" rule, you never get out of legal moves, so if a player doesn't want to pass, the game will never finish.


This post by lorill was liked by: pio
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:13 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1449
Liked others: 1562
Was liked: 140
Rank: KGS 6k
GD Posts: 892
Suicide doesn't affect teaching beginners, so I don't have anything against it. I usually explain it as "this doesn't make much sense, so they made a rule against it".

I just like the suicide rule because I am used to it by now.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:54 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 16
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 9kyu
GD Posts: 100
I like the no-suicide rule, it seems more natural to me.

Still if you do want to play that way you can always play with New Zealand Rules or SST rules (which the Go player's Almanac 2001 informs me allow suicide).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:11 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
John Fairbairn wrote:
If you vaguely say "you must make a move or pass", of course it is possible to imagine a move being various things. But if you are Chinese or Japanese, the word for move implies rather strongly that you place a stone and leave it there(it "adheres").


Since Ing rules allows suicide and is originally Chinese (from Taiwan), did they handle the language differently?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #11 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:46 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 106
Location: Germany
Liked others: 64
Was liked: 7
Rank: EGF 8k
Universal go server handle: ChradH
lorill wrote:
Don't forget that without the "suicide is forbidden" rule, you never get out of legal moves, so if a player doesn't want to pass, the game will never finish.

You could just ban single stone suicides. This would be similar to the ko rule, as single stone suicides repeat the board position.

_________________
To sig or not to sig, that is the question.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #12 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:06 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10732
Liked others: 3617
Was liked: 3354
Starting with the very first version, Ing rules have allowed suicide, except for single stone suicide. One of Ing's aims was to liberalize the game.

I liked the idea, and later on I saw some of Hungerink's beautiful compositions involving suicide.

However, as I have done work on rules I have become more sympathetic to the practical problems of repetitions. Suicide exacerbates these problems, as positions that do not at first glance look anything like repetitive positions actually have repetitive sequences. So I wonder if suicide is more trouble than it's worth.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #13 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:11 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1844
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 89
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Just in case some people are confused, the suicide being discussed in this thread is this kind of suicide:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Playing at T19 as White
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . . X X O |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Not this kind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Playing at T18 or S19 as White
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...or am I mistaken in that the latter diagram is not an example of suicide?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #14 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:20 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 660
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
There is a rule which says that stones cannot be on the board if they have no liberties. An obvious consequence of this is that you cannot make a move which results in no liberties. Suicide is logically not possible.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #15 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:33 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 798
Liked others: 307
Was liked: 131
Rank: German 2 dan
DrStraw wrote:
There is a rule which says that stones cannot be on the board if they have no liberties. An obvious consequence of this is that you cannot make a move which results in no liberties. Suicide is logically not possible.


No, the obvious consequence is that if you play a stone which has no liberties, it is removed. Suicide is thus logically possible.

A play is

  • placing a stone on an empty intersection, then
  • removing all opposing stones that have no liberties, if any, then
  • removing all own stones that now still have no liberties, if any.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #16 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:36 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Posts: 1125
Location: Allegan, MI, USA
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 121
Rank: KGS 9k
Universal go server handle: Jordus
Suicide is just a bad move (i.e. the name suicide....), because you can not benefit whatsoever from it. In fact you are hurt by it. You give your opponent an extra point, and it is their move.

_________________
I'm thinking...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #17 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:43 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Jordus wrote:
Suicide is just a bad move (i.e. the name suicide....), because you can not benefit whatsoever from it. In fact you are hurt by it. You give your opponent an extra point, and it is their move.


There is a possibility you can use it as a ko threat. There are also times when you may consider doing it for extra time if it makes an answer required.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #18 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:47 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Posts: 1125
Location: Allegan, MI, USA
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 121
Rank: KGS 9k
Universal go server handle: Jordus
oren wrote:
Jordus wrote:
Suicide is just a bad move (i.e. the name suicide....), because you can not benefit whatsoever from it. In fact you are hurt by it. You give your opponent an extra point, and it is their move.


There is a possibility you can use it as a ko threat. There are also times when you may consider doing it for extra time if it makes an answer required.


How can it be used as a ko threat? Using Araban's diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Playing at T19 as White
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . . X X O |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


if white plays suicide, all three stones are now gone and its black turn. black plays :b2: . Now white is in the position as before. Ko threat = 0.

*edit* unless..... you were talking about it as a threat in order to take another ko on the board.... hmmmmmm :-?

_________________
I'm thinking...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #19 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:49 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 589
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 114
Rank: 2 dan
Jordus wrote:
oren wrote:
Jordus wrote:
Suicide is just a bad move (i.e. the name suicide....), because you can not benefit whatsoever from it. In fact you are hurt by it. You give your opponent an extra point, and it is their move.


There is a possibility you can use it as a ko threat. There are also times when you may consider doing it for extra time if it makes an answer required.


How can it be used as a ko threat? Using Araban's diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Playing at T19 as White
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . . X X O |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


if white plays suicide, all three stones are now gone and its black turn. black plays :b2: . Now white is in the position as before. Ko threat = 0.


Remember, a ko threat is a move which your opponent answers. Since black answered (in order to keep his two eyes), that *was* a ko threat. Ko threat = 1.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What's wrong with suicide?
Post #20 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:50 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Posts: 1125
Location: Allegan, MI, USA
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 121
Rank: KGS 9k
Universal go server handle: Jordus
Jordus wrote:
oren wrote:
Jordus wrote:

*edit* unless..... you were talking about it as a threat in order to take another ko on the board.... hmmmmmm :-?


amnal wrote:
Remember, a ko threat is a move which your opponent answers. Since black answered (in order to keep his two eyes), that *was* a ko threat. Ko threat = 1.


Good thing its against the rules then.....

*edit* My bad... quote#2 was from amnal not oren... sorry amnal..... :oops:

_________________
I'm thinking...

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 127 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group