- i suggest ending with 4 passes. (as in an earlier discussion here)
- why don't you just cut and paste the complete rules.
(if they are compact they should be short)
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| Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4179 |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
I'm currently trying to state my preferred ruleset:
as compactly as possible. This is attempt 1.0: 1. Black, White etc. quits, passes, or puts One's piece on an empty intersection, removing Other's without paths along the lines to empty spots through only Other's then for One's-avoid board states of One's past turns. 2. If One passes following a pass Other resumes 1 by no pass or agrees on pieces to remove before each sums One's, empty spots without paths to Other's not through One's, and 7 if White if Black had no first free turns. It is assumed that equipment is already available and therefore needs no definition. Are all necessary inferences, while not necessarily easy, acceptable? Notably, I leave out jargon, who wins upon quitting or scoring, explain what a path is only once, omit 'pieces' after the first possessive, and use 'One' and 'Other' instead of 'one' and 'the other' (or 'the opponent'). I define komi-less handicap at the end. |
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| Author: | willemien [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
- i suggest ending with 4 passes. (as in an earlier discussion here) - why don't you just cut and paste the complete rules. (if they are compact they should be short) |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
- I don't know the point of a fourth pass, but an effective third pass is possible because suicide is allowed, and any disadvantaged player can force play to resume by disputing stones anyway. - 1. and 2. are the complete rules, but for reference, here's the NZ rules (which are necessarily longer for readability and to include jargon and equipment):
Go is played on a board with a 19 x 19 grid, by two players, one using a set of (about) 180 white counters, the other a set of (about) 181 black counters. These counters are called stones. Adjacent intersections are those intersections connected by lines of the grid, with no intervening intersections. Two stones of the same colour are connected if they are on adjacent intersections or if they are both connected to a third stone. A liberty of a stone is an unoccupied intersection adjacent to that stone or to any stone connected to that stone. Territory of a player (at the end of the game) consists of all points occupied by that player's stones plus all unoccupied points adjacent to that territory. A play consists of placing a stone (of that player's own colour) on an unoccupied intersection, then removing any of the opponent's stones that then have no liberties (if any), and then removing any of that player's own stones that then have no liberties (if any). A move consists of making a play so that the resulting board position does not repeat the whole board position as it was after any of that player's previous moves or saying 'pass'. A game of go begins with an empty board, and the players take turns to move (beginning with black). The game is finished when both players agree that there are no more worthwhile moves. 'Dead' stones may then be removed from the board by mutual agreement. If they cannot agree which stones are dead they must play on. If they cannot then agree who shall move next, all stones stay on the board (are alive) and are counted. In an even game, 7 points (komi) are added to the white players territory. In a handicap game, white passes the first n - 1 moves where n is the size of the handicap. There is no komi. The winner is the player with the most points at the end of the game. Notice that I ditch the recursive definitions for a path existence approach. I sure hope that part is unambiguous. |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
Mr. Mormon wrote: I'm currently trying to state my preferred ruleset as compactly as possible. Why?!? |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
For fun. But a neat side effect is a demonstration that the rules can be written as simple (well, short) as they are often described as.
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
It is certainly a good idea to try to state your understanding of how the Go rules should be. However, it is better to have five clear sentences than two incomprehensible ones. |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
I'm trying to state them as short as possible unambiguously, even if not clearly. The rules are supposed to say:
A turn consists of quitting, passing, or placing a stone of one's color on an empty intersection. When a stone is placed, any of the opponent's stones that are captured are removed, and then one's captured stones if any are removed. (suicide allowed) A stone of one color is captured if there are no paths along the lines that connect that stone to an empty intersection without passing through a stone of the opposite color. Don't recreate a position (when placing a stone) resulting after any of one's previous turns (even if they were passes). (situational superko) If two passes happen in a row, either the players agree on stones to remove, if any, before area scoring plus komi of 7 for White if Black didn't have a (free) handicap, or resume normal play starting with the first passer in the two passes, who may not pass on that turn. Area scoring says that the score is the sum of one's stones on the board and empty intersections with no paths to opponent stones without passing through one's stones. Does Compact Modified New Zealand Ruleset 1.0 say all and only that? |
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| Author: | snorri [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
It looks like a communication from aliens. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
Mr. Mormon wrote: I'm currently trying to state my preferred ruleset:
as compactly as possible. This is attempt 1.0: 1. Black, White etc. quits, passes, or puts One's piece on an empty intersection, removing Other's without paths along the lines to empty spots through only Other's then for One's-avoid board states of One's past turns. 2. If One passes following a pass Other resumes 1 by no pass or agrees on pieces to remove before each sums One's, empty spots without paths to Other's not through One's, and 7 if White if Black had no first free turns. It is assumed that equipment is already available and therefore needs no definition. Are all necessary inferences, while not necessarily easy, acceptable? Notably, I leave out jargon, who wins upon quitting or scoring, explain what a path is only once, omit 'pieces' after the first possessive, and use 'One' and 'Other' instead of 'one' and 'the other' (or 'the opponent'). I define komi-less handicap at the end. What does "Black, White, etc." mean? Are green and red allowed, too? Does "quit" mean I win or lose or no result? Do Black and White alternate turns or somehow play simultaneously? What's a line to empty spots? "Avoid board states of One's past turns": Is that a strategy tip? What happens if I don't avoid it? That's just line 1. I don't understand line 2 at all. For comparison, here are a set of NZ rules translated through on online translation engine from English to Korean and back. These are still more comprehensible than your second sentence. Moving in a series of (approximately) 180 different sets of white counter (approximately) 181 Black counters by using the two players, one, 19 X 19 grid and will be played on the board. These counters are referred to as a rock. Intersections and intersections adjacent to the grid without any intervention, then the intersection of the line is connected. They are connected Dolo adjacent to the intersection or the third case, the two stones the same color if you are connecting. Freedom of stone to stone or an empty intersection adjacent doleule doleule is connected. Players (at the end of the game), the region adjacent to the area that a player's stones and occupying all the empty spot is composed of all the points. Play at the intersection of the empty stone (ie, the player's own color) consists of a batch, and then the freedom (if applicable) gaeopneun remove one of the opponent's stones and then there is the freedom that the players One of his removing the stone (if any). Consists of moving 1. That's after the player's previous moves have happened due to the location on board to avoid repeating the position of the entire Board of Directors, or making plays 2. OR 'pass' said. Of games and players start with a blank board (black to start with) to turn to move. This game has two players agree to no more changes in the value you're done. 'Dead' stones, then by mutual agreement may be removed from the board. They can not agree that this stone dead if they should play. They can not agree who should move to the next, all the stones Board (live) is calculated perfectly. Even in the game 7 points (Komi) is added to the area of the white players. n is the size of a failure to move the disabled in the game to pass the first n white. Komi is not anything eoga. The winner is the player with the most points at the end of the game. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mr. Mormon wrote: For fun. Also for fun, here's another approach (Post #26) -- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3995&start=20
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
Mr. Mormon wrote: I'm trying to state them as short as possible unambiguously, even if not clearly. The rules are supposed to say: Since this is the go rules forum...[list]When a stone is placed, any of the opponent's stones that are captured are removed, and then one's captured stones if any are removed. (suicide allowed) A stone of one color is captured if there are no paths along the lines that connect that stone to an empty intersection without passing through a stone of the opposite color. These clauses contain a problem. "One's captured stones" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could either mean "stones which currently meet the criteria for being captured", or "stones which have at any point been captured" (I think the latter is slightly more natural). According to that idiomatic understanding, both marked stones are considered captured. The white stone is removed first, then the black stone is removed second. I doubt this would be a hard fix to make. |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
@hyperpape Every turn the capture rule is applied, so no captured stones from older turns would still be on the board and the ambiguity becomes moot. @EdLee lol @snorri The equipment is already provided, but I guess "Black, White etc." can hint at a multicolor variant, which is fine. I'm trying to correctly abuse implications like crazy. Quitting cannot be a win because the rules would never be relevant (as the game would never be played beyond the first turn), nor can it be a draw because no one could force a win. The statements from 2. that one can pass following a pass and that one player resumes 1. imply alternating turns. I didn't notice the garden path-ness of "paths along the lines to empty spots", but I suppose as long as your second interpretation is obviously undefined, the first should rationally be taken? I don't think strategy tips can by definition belong in a "ruleset", but is that debatable? What's wrong with 2.? Is there another interpretation besides "If One passes following a pass (a) Other resumes [the phase described by rule] 1 by no pass or (b) agrees on pieces to remove before each sums (i) One's, (ii) empty spots without paths to Other's not through One's, and (iii) 7 (if White [if Black had no first free turns])."? |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
I still like this the best: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/go.html Succinct, readable, and unambiguous. |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
Longer. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
Mr. Mormon wrote: @snorri The equipment is already provided, but I guess "Black, White etc." can hint at a multicolor variant, which is fine. I don't think that you can admit multicolor go without adding more rules, so the phrasing should be more restrictive. Mr. Mormon wrote: I'm trying to correctly abuse implications like crazy. I'm not sure how one can distinguish correct abuse from incorrect abuse. Anyway, what you can assume depends on the audience. If you are doing it for fun, maybe the audience is yourself, in which can everything can be left out, but of course that's not interesting. If the audience is beginners, then there more needs to be included. Mr. Mormon wrote: Quitting cannot be a win because the rules would never be relevant (as the game would never be played beyond the first turn), nor can it be a draw because no one could force a win. Okay, I was being glib. But I think "resign" is better than "quit." Resign implies a concession of loss, whereas if you say "quit" that sounds more like escaping. Mr. Mormon wrote: The statements from 2. that one can pass following a pass and that one player resumes 1. imply alternating turns. No, it implies 1 alternation during the pass phase. One cannot automatically conclude that play before passing alternates. I suppose you can suggest that that's obvious. Mr. Mormon wrote: I don't think strategy tips can by definition belong in a "ruleset", but is that debatable? Strategy tips don't belong in a rulset. So you shouldn't say avoid, because avoiding something sounds optional. So you should say that the repetition is illegal, prohibited, or something like that. "Game state" is pretty vague in your modified rules. Mr. Mormon wrote: What's wrong with 2.? It parses poorly. |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
The lack of additional colors in the equipment forbids the interpretation of possibly more colors. "Quit" and "avoid" are shorter words than their alternatives, and connotations shouldn't affect factual meaning. Beginners would probably never want to play Go again if they had to go (see what I did there?) by CMNZR! Turn alternation is also implied by "avoid board states of One's past turns" and "if Black had no first free turns". I suppose it's not obvious enough that I'm associating alternation with the actual definition of the repeated word "turn", as opposed to using "turn" to specify the actions specific to one player in a simul-turn? How about this - turns cannot be simultaneous because cases like hyperpape's graphic and both players wanting to play in the same place are obviously not handled. As for how to tackle rule 2, could you please define "poorly"? With an alternate consistent interpretation, or syntactically incorrect English, or...? You're being a big help, though. Thanks. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
@MrMormon Reread my post. Both marked stones count as being captured according to the quoted passage. According to one interpretation of what you have written, they should then sequentially be removed. Edit: if this helps, note that the passage I am quoting treats "capturing" and "removing" as different actions. A stone becomes captured at an earlier step in the rules application, and only later is removed. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
So you can go with something like: 1. Players pass or put an own piece on an empty grid point, connecting any adjacent own pieces into a chain, then remove other's chains without adjacent empty points, then own, without repeating previous states. |
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| Author: | Mr. Mormon [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
@hyperpape Ah, you're right. Simul-cap is handled. I still don't see how you think any stones could be captured and not removed the same turn, though. But I still think the alternation of turns is established. @HermanHiddema "Black, White, etc." serves the purpose of specifying the first player while hinting at alternation. Resignation - I'll get back to that. Isn't that grammatically incorrect to say own instead of one's own? "grid point" is shorter than "intersection", nice - I won't replace "spots" with "points" too though, since that would negate the two characters saved. I can't describe chains with "adjacent" because diagonals could be interpreted as such. I added resignation as a personal choice of what the ruleset should accomplish. I know one could justify that if someone quits, no ruleset can tell them otherwise. But some things show poor sportsmanship while others are accepted. One could also say that cheating without being caught is implicitly allowed. Some games revolve around cheating. This game is about exactly what is allowed. That's just my view. |
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| Author: | palapiku [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stating this Ruleset as Compactly as Possible |
I don't think anyone can read that and understand it without already knowing the rules of go. In which case, here's an even more compact description, for someone already familiar with the NZ ruleset: . |
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