Theoretical disputed end of the game in Japanese rules.

tetron · #1

In a recent conversation about clock etiquette I realised that I was unsure what happens with the clocks when a game is ended with disputed life under Japanese rules. It didn't seem clear in one translation of the rules that I saw.

This discussion is based upon a question of how to deal with a player who is willfully trying to win on time and making no genuine effort to win the game. Obviously in practise you would eventually have to disqualify a player if they refused to adhere to the etiquette of the game but I was wondering what happens to the score in the following scenrio:

In a completely contrived situation with lots of passes
white has 360 prisoners

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Black to play:
if black now passes
then white has to pass

Is black allowed to pass again?
If pass is allowed:
While the white stones are clearly dead does black also get to count the whole board as territory?
If white asks for a resumption of play is black allowed to pass or is this the clause where both players lose?

What happens to the clocks if the game is resumed?

Bill Spight · #2

The White stones are dead. They are removed after play.

If White requests resumption, Black can pass.

Edit: Correction of the above. As Robert points out, under the Japanese 1989 rules the White stones are alive if left at the end of play, since if they are captured White can play an uncapturable stone.

Management of clocks is determined by the sponsoring organization or the players. It is not part of the Japanese rules, per se.

I have heard that under sudden death play in Japan, purposefully prolonging the game by plays inside territory that do not have to answered is considered a violation of the tournament rules, but I am not sure.

RobertJasiek · #3

mithra · #4

"capturable-1" (as a word) should not be part/included of any written official Japanese ruleset, if I remember correctly.
Apparently you are referring (don't you?) to the infamous passage in "Japanese.html", Chapter "Commentary on Article 7, Life and death":
"2. Examples of stones that are alive because capturing them would enable a new stone to be played that the opponent could not capture."
Remark: no strings as examples, only (single) stones. Have we to guess if "enabling" concerns only single stones, whole strings, or parts of strings?

RobertJasiek · #5

As James Davies and I have proven, "enable" creates not intended nonsense and gaps. Therefore the Japanese /Korean rules should have "capturable-1" and "capturable-2" in them. More precisely, if they want to maintain their spirit, they should have these two concepts because Chris Dams's proof
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/wagcmod.html
shows how very meaningful they are. ("capturable-3" might be omitted though if the Japanese could make a tiny change to their rules.) Of course, other words or phrases are possible:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/j2003inf.html

Javaness2 · #6

If you look at the Japanese Pair Go Association's rules, you will find
"(3) Please refrain from trying to win on time when you have a lost game."

I have seen players who have played in the World Pair Go Championship arguing the opposite, that winning a game on time "teaches your opponent a lesson".

tetron wrote:

In a recent conversation about clock etiquette I realised that I was unsure what happens with the clocks when a game is ended with disputed life under Japanese rules. It didn't seem clear in one translation of the rules that I saw.

Theoretical disputed end of the game in Japanese rules.

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