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Taking notes during play
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7053
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Author:  SmoothOper [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Taking notes during play

Is using paper and pencil prohibited during play? I personally feel that it could come in handy refining my counting and positional judgement.

Author:  speedchase [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

according to the AGA rules, it is permitted, but you have to show anything you write to your opponent.

Author:  SmoothOper [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

speedchase wrote:
according to the AGA rules, it is permitted, but you have to show anything you write to your opponent.


Do you have to show them while you are playing? That seems kind of weird.

Author:  speedchase [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

SmoothOper wrote:
Do you have to show them while you are playing? That seems kind of weird.

Well, they would hardly be useful to your opponent after the game ended!
Personally I think it's a foolish rule, go is a mental game, writing isn't part of it.

Author:  oren [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Keeping notes with pencil and paper seem like a bad crutch to start using. It's best to just keep things in your head. Paper and pencil is generally allowed in order for people to record games.

Author:  Phelan [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

SmoothOper wrote:
speedchase wrote:
according to the AGA rules, it is permitted, but you have to show anything you write to your opponent.


Do you have to show them while you are playing? That seems kind of weird.
It's to avoid giving an advantage to the person writing. If one is counting mentally, and the other is writing it, the one writing doesn't need as much mental power devoted to counting.

I think that if you are recording the game, it also has to be visible to the opponent.

I thought that taking notes was forbidden in european tournament rules, but am not sure right now.

Author:  Faro [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

I think It could be handy if you were keeping a record of the moves as you played (and that's is, as you play) And then later write down notes as a stronger player helped you review.
That would you could say "Move 106 should have been here and not there" But as said above, Having that knowledge in your head and the ability to call upon it is more important. But hey, Everyone learns differently.

I would just say keep the notes on game play for a post-game review and only records the moves during the game.

Author:  speedchase [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

people do that all the time, and I have never heard of anyone analyze during the game.

Author:  Phelan [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

speedchase wrote:
people do that all the time, and I have never heard of anyone analyze during the game.

By "that", I assume you mean recording moves? It's not clear.

Author:  speedchase [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Phelan wrote:
By "that", I assume you mean recording moves? It's not clear.

yeah, you are correct what I meant. Sorry!

Author:  SmoothOper [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

I am interested in it to facilitate counting. Not recording. IE group X has 10 points group Y has 20 group z has 5 ... etc.

That way I could free up space for reading and strategic planning.

Author:  Phelan [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

SmoothOper wrote:
I am interested in it to facilitate counting. Not recording. IE group X has 10 points group Y has 20 group z has 5 ... etc.

That way I could free up space for reading and strategic planning.
Unless you are talking about counting after the end of the game, it's as we've been saying, you can do it, but you have to show your opponent. Otherwise, you effectively have an artificial memory advantage over your opponent.

Author:  oren [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

SmoothOper wrote:
I am interested in it to facilitate counting. Not recording. IE group X has 10 points group Y has 20 group z has 5 ... etc.


And this might be fine, but I agree with others that it has to become public information.

Also anything we tell you is a guess here. The final decision of whether it's allowed would be from the tournament director.

Author:  SmoothOper [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Do I have to show them while playing or just afterward?

Seems like it would be tempting to write something like "Black loses by y=45, black sucks by x=30, black's hair = frizzy, white is awesome = 25..." just to obfuscate the text.

Author:  oren [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Which is why if I'm tournament director, I would say paper and pencil can only be used to record your games.

It helps to avoid this issue entirely.

Author:  tundra [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Re: this AGA rule, that you may take notes during play, provided you show them to your opponent. I have been searching for it, in both the AGA Rules of Go, and the AGA Tournament Regulations.

As far as I can tell, there is no such rule. (If it did exist, it looks like it would have appeared in the tournament regulations, section VI.A.5.) If I am overlooking it, could someone point out where it appears?

Author:  Zombie [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

In Magic, there are effects that reveal the opposing player's hand. Like the size of a group in Go, this is essentially public information that you just have to memorize, and it is important to. They found out it's faster to just let people take notes during play. Otherwise people would spend a long time memorizing the contents of the opponent's hand. With notes, it's a non-issue. I don't see why private notes would have to be forbidden as long as they are made during the game and can be checked by a judge if necessary.

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

SmoothOper wrote:
Do I have to show them while playing or just afterward?

Seems like it would be tempting to write something like "Black loses by y=45, black sucks by x=30, black's hair = frizzy, white is awesome = 25..." just to obfuscate the text.


Which then runs the risk of you getting your game forfeited by a referee... :grumpy:

Author:  Zombie [ Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

The relevant parts of note-taking rules from Magic Tournament Rules. Seem pretty ok for Go in my opinion if note-taking is to be allowed. What do you think?

(A single tournament match in Magic is typically a Best of Three set)

2.11 Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take written notes during a match and may refer to those notes while that match is in progress. At the beginning of a match, each player’s note sheet must be empty and must remain visible throughout the match. Players do not have to explain or reveal notes to other players. Judges may ask to see a player’s notes and/or request that the player explain his or her notes.
Players may not refer to other notes, including notes from previous matches, during games.

Between games, players may refer to a brief set of notes made before the match. They are not required to reveal these notes to their opponents. These notes must be removed from the play area before the beginning of the next game. Excessive quantities of notes (more than a sheet or two) are not allowed and may be penalized as slow play.

The Head Judge is the final arbiter on what cards and notes are acceptable for a tournament.


2.12 Electronic Devices
Players may use electronic devices to do the following:
• Keep track of life totals or other game-relevant information.
• Take and review notes (as outlined in section 2.11).
• Generate a random number when the game calls for one.
• Briefly answer personal calls not related to the game (with permission of the opponent).
Players may not use electronic devices to access outside strategic sources (websites, forums, etc) or communicate with others in order to receive outside assistance. Players that spend excessive time on any of the above uses of electronic devices may be subject to Slow Play penalties.
Players wishing to view information privately on electronic devices during matches must request permission from a judge.
The Head Judge of an event may further restrict or forbid the use of electronic devices during matches.

Author:  Phelan [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taking notes during play

Zombie wrote:
Players do not have to explain or reveal notes to other players.

This is the part I disagree with. While this might make sense in Magic, where there is hidden information (composition of deck, current hand, etc.), Go is a perfect information game. The only hidden information is what your opponent is thinking.
Adding extra hidden information would introduce another layer to the game: how good are the notes you take, how much processing/memory power can you save by writing things down?

So, I think using public visible and understandable notes is the only way to keep the game the same. If you want to save your memory when counting, your opponent should get access to that information.

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