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How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacent?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8933		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  gour [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacent?
How much would go change if diagonal stones were considered adjacent?
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.
Author:  Bantari [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
DrStraw wrote:
It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.

I don't think this would be much of an issue - it would be just harder to kill stones so you capture less on average during the game.

Instead, the considerations here would be:
1. How would a KO look like? and
2. You would have to spend a few more moves to secure areas (so securing areas would get harder).
3. Same (#2) also goes for eyes of living groups - which would affect some/many joseki (obviously) and invasions (which would get harder, I think - but this might balance with securing areas being harder.)

But all in all, I still think we would recognize the game for what it is.

However, once somebody tries it, a whole bunch of other issues might pop up... I never did so I am not sure what else can happen. Play a game like that and find out. ;)

3D Go would be much more tricky, I fear.
Author:  MJK [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Is 'adjactent' an English word? Unfindable in any of my dictionaries.
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
MJK wrote:
Is 'adjactent' an English word? Unfindable in any of my dictionaries.


Didn't even notice that - I just read it as adjacent.
Author:  Mef [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Bantari wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.

I don't think this would be much of an issue - it would be just harder to kill stones so you capture less on average during the game.

Instead, the considerations here would be:
1. How would a KO look like? and
2. You would have to spend a few more moves to secure areas (so securing areas would get harder).
3. Same (#2) also goes for eyes of living groups - which would affect some/many joseki (obviously) and invasions (which would get harder, I think - but this might balance with securing areas being harder.)

But all in all, I still think we would recognize the game for what it is.

However, once somebody tries it, a whole bunch of other issues might pop up... I never did so I am not sure what else can happen. Play a game like that and find out. ;)

3D Go would be much more tricky, I fear.


Effectively no more ladders, and there is no longer such a thing as a cross cut... the concept of a hane is lost too, as it is now just another stretch (albeit a strange one).
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Bantari wrote:
...[what]...would a KO look like?...


To the best of my calculations, a ko no longer exists. :sad:
Author:  ez4u [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Capturing a single stone would be like this presumably.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B No more ko
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X X 1 . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
I think seki will happen a lot more often.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I think seki will happen a lot more often.


More problematically, no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.
Author:  Mef [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bantari wrote:
...[what]...would a KO look like?...


To the best of my calculations, a ko no longer exists. :sad:



Indeed, any stone causing a capture would need to be connected to at least one other stone of the same color...so ko goes out the window pretty quickly.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Boidhre wrote:
...no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.


There should be more false eyes. The problems just change.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W No more easy eyes
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


EDIT: in the center of the board, an eye is now 16 times harder to make. On the side, it is 4 times harder. In the corner, twice.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
...no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.


There should be more false eyes. The problems just change.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W No more easy eyes
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


That's not a false eye. Well, not under the usual definitions I've seen for them.

I mean your diagram is analagous to this no?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . |
$$ . . . . |
$$ . . O . |
$$ . X O X |
$$ . X X X |
$$ , . . . |
$$ . . . . |
$$ . . . . |
$$ . . . . |
$$ --------+[/go]
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I think seki will happen a lot more often.
In fact, I would assume that in a game between competent players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki. Possibly the entire board.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
hyperpape wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I think seki will happen a lot more often.
In fact, I would assume that in a game between competent players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki. Possibly the entire board.


I think that is probably true. Invasions are easy, so eyes are nearly impossible.
I tried a short game, playing both sides. The first player cannot make an eye with a 3-3 play because invasions are so easily connected out.

Actually, I would rephrase that as "... a game between competent aggressive players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki." It is possible that both sides would concentrate on their respective eyes first, then try to connect everything on the board to them.
Author:  Sverre [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacen
It's pretty much impossible to cut anything. Can Black separate White here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Sverre [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacte
Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Actually, I would rephrase that as "... a game between competent aggressive players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki." It is possible that both sides would concentrate on their respective eyes first, then try to connect everything on the board to them.


It is very hard to make eyes. If you want an eye in the corner the 2-2 point is your only move, but trying to protect the 1-1 point can kill you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black tries too hard to make an eye
$$ ---------------
$$ . . . 9 7 3 . |
$$ . . 0 8 2 1 5 |
$$ . . . . 6 4 . |
$$ . . . , . . . |[/go]
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacen
Sverre wrote:
It's pretty much impossible to cut anything. Can Black separate White here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:shock:
Author:  judicata [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacen
This might be a decent candidate for "crazy go" night at a Go Congress. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done before.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacen
judicata wrote:
...I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done before.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_%28board_game%29
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