who qualifies as european?

tealeaf · **#61**

Boywing wrote:

What about someone who has been living in Europe for many years, is married to a native European,
is working here, is playing go, is participating in European tournaments, but choose not to get
a European passport?

That's an interesting point. I wonder if an approach along the lines of "fulfils the basic eligibility requirements for a passport" might be a reasonable alternative to actually requiring a passport.

I still prefer the "normally resident" approach, though, with perhaps a minimum stay of two years.

kirkmc · **#62**

Boywing wrote:

I would prefer a rule of something like "Is living in an European country now and since X years".
Here X should not be more than 5. I think 3 years should be enough.
It is possible to become European citizen and get European passport after living in Europe for 3 years.

Oh really? And which country do you live in where this is possible?

Quote:

Now, what about those Europeans who moved to another area of the earth and didn't keep their
European citizenship (and European passport)? They are not living in Europe, but are originating from Europe.

You don't lose your citizenship just because you don't renew your passport.

But a European would not be able to compete in the US championship, would they, unless they had dual EU-US citizenship?

oren · **#63**

kirkmc wrote:

But a European would not be able to compete in the US championship, would they, unless they had dual EU-US citizenship?

You need green card status to participate in North American Masters. I don't know details in Europe, but they must have something similar to resident status and not citizens.

kirkmc · **#64**

oren wrote:

kirkmc wrote:

But a European would not be able to compete in the US championship, would they, unless they had dual EU-US citizenship?

You need green card status to participate in North American Masters. I don't know details in Europe, but they must have something similar to resident status and not citizens.

Is the NA Masters the tournament that chooses the US champion? (ie, is it similar to the tournament that we're discussing here?)

oren · **#65**

kirkmc wrote:

Is the NA Masters the tournament that chooses the US champion? (ie, is it similar to the tournament that we're discussing here?)

http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/MajorEvents.html

Read under "Domestic Events".

It's also not US, but North American champ.

Magicwand · **#66**

you can try to sugarcoat all you want..
if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.
it is not even worth the discussion.

let's just say E stand for tournament held in Europe then everything will be fine.

Bantari · **#67**

I don't understand why is there so much resistance to defining 'European' as the person who has the right to hold a passport from any of the European countries. Or some other form of official, already accepted, recognition.

After all, this is how it already works in most countries, in one form or another.
You cannot vote in a country unless you have citizenship from that country.
You cannot run for public office in a country under same constraint.
You cannot work unless you have some kind of official work permit (Green Card in the US.)
And so on...

The rules, requirements, and conditions are usually very well defined in each of the above examples.

I never heard in Europe people describing any of the above 'discriminatory' or 'nationalistic'.
In the US they do, but Americans are nuts anyways, so who cares...

The way to change that is to convince your respective governments to open its citizenship requirements, give passports and/or work permits to everybody who asks. I would be cool with that too. As a matter of fact, this would be absolutely awesome for all non-Europeans. So, lets start an initiative... collect signatures... and all that. We need a Fearless Leader now, strong hand with even stronger convictions, who can head the fight for justice and equality for all! Now, who uses the word 'nationalism' the most in this debate?...

Boywing · **#68**

kirkmc wrote:

Boywing wrote:

I would prefer a rule of something like "Is living in an European country now and since X years".
Here X should not be more than 5. I think 3 years should be enough.
It is possible to become European citizen and get European passport after living in Europe for 3 years.

Oh really? And which country do you live in where this is possible?

Sweden and probably other countries.

kirkmc wrote:

Quote:

Now, what about those Europeans who moved to another area of the earth and didn't keep their
European citizenship (and European passport)? They are not living in Europe, but are originating from Europe.

You don't lose your citizenship just because you don't renew your passport.

But you might have to give up your original citizenship to get citizenship of another country. Several countries do not allow double citizenships. That is a reason of choosing not to get an European one.

tj86430 · **#69**

pwaldron wrote:

The current British Open golf champion is South African

OT, but I forgot to mention that while it is commonly called "British Open" amongst non-enthusiasts, the name of the tournament is "The Open Championship" (no mention of any geography in the name)

tj86430 · **#70**

Magicwand wrote:

if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.

So basically you are against any closed championship in any sport?

Bantari · **#71**

Magicwand wrote:

you can try to sugarcoat all you want..
if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.

True, but trivial to the point of uselessness. Therefore - pointless and silly.
Each restriction can be defined as 'discriminatory' this way.

Youth Go Championship discriminates against older players?
Women Tournament discriminates against male players?
Hanguk Kiwon events restricted to HK members? Yuck!
And so on...

As a matter of fact, I could say that you discriminate against the rest of the world by not letting anybody make moves for you in your games. Your logic, not mine. The restriction can even be called 'geographic' if we assume that you only allow people occupying the exact same area of space as you do to be allowed to make moves for you. Pointless and silly.

Truth is - Some events will always need restrictions, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Its not even worth discussing, I agree.

Magicwand · **#72**

Bantari wrote:

Youth Go Championship discriminates against older players?
Women Tournament discriminates against male players?
Hanguk Kiwon events restricted to HK members? Yuck!

yes...it is wrong to have youth or women tournament in my opinion. but who am i to say..
that is why i do not pay money to view their games. i only enjoy Pure open games where skill is the only thing that decide the outcome.

hanguk kiwon events do not put any restrictions. if you are strong enough then you may try to be korean professional. then you can enter all events. there are many foreigner who successfully earned korean 1D. they are allowed to enter the torunament if they wish.

deja · **#73**

Aside from all the PC rhetoric concerning nation-state prerogatives, it seems to me that globalization trends will prevail regardless of regional proclivities. All of this hand waving concerning European status only delays the inevitable at best. Why not prepare for the future rather than hopelessly try to preserve the past, which was never there in the first place. Magicwand, et al have already pointed out the obvious. The West needs to catch up with East and there's no other path than to acknowledge the disparity and work toward competing against the best of the best.

The bottom line - they don't need us. We need them. They can ignored us without affect.

Bantari · **#74**

Magicwand wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Youth Go Championship discriminates against older players?
Women Tournament discriminates against male players?
Hanguk Kiwon events restricted to HK members? Yuck!

hanguk kiwon events do not put any restrictions. if you are strong enough then you may try to be korean professional. then you can enter all events. there are many foreigner who successfully earned korean 1D. they are allowed to enter the torunament if they wish.

You contradict yourself.
Why should I have to become a pro to enter HK events? Its a discriminatory restriction!
Why should anybody have to become European citizen to enter European tournaments?

Same things. Empty rhetoric.
'nuff said.

topazg · **#75**

I think most of the controversy isn't over the idea of a champion, but the idea that the tournament games are combining two tournaments - the EC and the Open. As a result, the Koreans are potentially not getting equivalent chances of winning at the top (supergroup restrictions to ensure enough EU vs EU players to award EC title in a way considered "fair"), and are voting with their feet. Essentially, through aiming to get 1 important priority (EU vs EU games), another priority (top player attendance) is being lost.

I suspect if there were two tournaments - the open, and a totally separate closed European Championship, none of this citizenship discussion would matter so much.

Bantari · **#76**

deja wrote:

Aside from all the PC rhetoric concerning nation-state prerogatives, it seems to me that globalization trends will prevail regardless of regional proclivities. All of this hand waving concerning European status only delays the inevitable at best. Why not prepare for the future rather than hopelessly try to preserve the past, which was never there in the first place. Magicwand, et al have already pointed out the obvious. The West needs to catch up with East and there's no other path than to acknowledge the disparity and work toward competing against the best of the best.

The bottom line - they don't need us. We need them. They can ignored us without affect.

Well... apparently they like the 'our' money...

Not just as tournament prizes, but also as growing markets for selling equipment, lessons, knowledge, and all kinds of other stuff.
I do not think it is right for the Europeans to understate their importance in the 'Grand Scheme of Go Economy'.

As for the 'global village' argument... I am not sure if you ever spent time around any kind of minority groups, but my experience tells me that the stronger the push from the outside to abandon one's culture and roots (and thus - uniqueness), the stronger the resistance. I have known emigrant groups in foreign countries placing a much stronger value on their 'uniqueness' than the same people while in their own country. Not sure how this will translate wrt globalization, but I will not be surprised if the trend to remain 'distinct' will grow stronger the more borders between nations crumble. Historical examples abound (Basks, Irish, Scots, to name just a few.)

Take Koreans for example, since this seems to be the underlying trend here. Are they any less proud to be 'Koreans' now than 20 years ago? Or 50 years ago? Will they be any less proud in 10 or 20 years? Will they stop referring to themselves as 'Koreans' and becoming generic 'World Citizens'? Will they always cultivate their specific uniqueness and culture or will they switch to Esperanto and make BigMac their national cousine? Will they want to have their own Baduk Association, or will they be happy for it to be silently absorbed into some Global Umbrella?

Time will tell, I guess.

How do you feel about your nationality in this light?

richardamullens · **#77**

HermanHiddema wrote:

richardamullens wrote:

Quote:

Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

ok

we will after all be meeting in Lunteren.

Ah, you're going to Zomergo? Good! We'll definitely meet there, then

Yes, I'm looking forward to the Zomergo. It was great last year in Texel and though I will miss the sea I'm sure there will be compensations.

Bantari · **#78**

topazg wrote:

I think most of the controversy isn't over the idea of a champion, but the idea that the tournament games are combining two tournaments - the EC and the Open. As a result, the Koreans are potentially not getting equivalent chances of winning at the top (supergroup restrictions to ensure enough EU vs EU players to award EC title in a way considered "fair"), and are voting with their feet. Essentially, through aiming to get 1 important priority (EU vs EU games), another priority (top player attendance) is being lost.

I suspect if there were two tournaments - the open, and a totally separate closed European Championship, none of this citizenship discussion would matter so much.

I feel exactly the same!
I also feel that, for that reason, the discussion should not be about philosophy and who needs who most, but about concrete ways to organize and fund such a separate Closed Championship. If it was possible to organize one, I think it would be awesome!

Magicwand · **#79**

tj86430 wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.

So basically you are against any closed championship in any sport?

if there is Brtish Closed golf.. i wouldnt waste my time watching the game and i am not the only one.

topazg · **#80**

Bantari wrote:

I feel exactly the same!
I also feel that, for that reason, the discussion should not be about philosophy and who needs who most, but about concrete ways to organize and fund such a separate Closed Championship. If it was possible to organize one, I think it would be awesome!

I feel exactly the same too

who qualifies as european?

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