Speaking as an admin, I trust that a touchy subject like this will provide the posters an opportunity to demonstrate their eloquence, fine manners, and restraint.
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| who qualifies as european? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1127 |
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| Author: | willemien [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | who qualifies as european? |
I think it is accepted that a wider body of people than just "passport holders of an EGF member country" should be allowed to participate. In my opinion it is desirable to encourage resident non Europeans to take part in national and international events. A variety of rules govern participation in national title holder events - In the UK it is not until 5 years of residence has been attained that someone becomes eligible to become British Champion. In France, last year, Yanqi Zhang, took the Open French championship after, I understand, 2 years of residence (I don't believe that there is a closed championship). My suspicion is that this is a quite contentious area - but as nationhood in the case of an European identity is weak, it seems we should try to be as inclusive as possible - and not bow to those whose interests are primarily financial. My preference would be for qualification to be determined by attainment of a threshold number of European tournaments that would show commitment to European Go and therefore exclude "tourists" |
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| Author: | richardamullens [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
willemien wrote: I think it is accepted that a wider body of people than just "passport holders of an EGF member country" should be allowed to participate. My preference would be for qualification to be determined by attainment of a threshold number of European tournaments that would show commitment to European Go and therefore exclude "tourists" This suggestion has the merit that it accepts as European those players who have demonstrated that they have integrated themselves successfully. It has a parallel in a recent change to the rules for the British championship whereby the existing champion is now required to play in the qualifying stage if he/she wishes to remain a contender. |
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| Author: | freegame [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
If I misunderstood willemien's suggestion let me know, but this sounds ridiculous to me... (sorry for the harsh words) In short to qualify as a "European" Go player you need to attend several open EGF tournaments? This would for example mean that Kang Kyeong-nang [7d] who is visiting Europe and playing tournaments here, but has a Korean passport and lives in Korea (Seoul) would be able to become European Champion. Up to now she played 5 tournaments with a total of 25 games and hasn't lost a single one. I think it would be rather strange if she would be the next European champion, especially after all the resent debates about the rules... my conclusion: Playing EGF tournaments has nothing to do with your status as European or non European. Passport, and to a certain degree, years of residence in an EGF member country do. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
freegame wrote: Up to now she played 5 tournaments with a total of 25 games and hasn't lost a single one. I think it would be rather strange if she would be the next European champion, especially after all the resent debates about the rules... I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, as some of your points are very well made, but isn't another possibility on these lines simply to expect more tournaments - 20+ at least? |
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| Author: | richardamullens [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
freegame wrote: If I misunderstood willemien's suggestion let me know, but this sounds ridiculous to me... (sorry for the harsh words) In short to qualify as a "European" Go player you need to attend several open EGF tournaments? You misrepresent the original suggestion and then go on to say it sounds ridiculous. Nowhere is the value of the threshold stated. Quote: This would for example mean that Kang Kyeong-nang [7d] who is visiting Europe and playing tournaments here, but has a Korean passport and lives in Korea (Seoul) would be able to become European Champion. If the threshold were 5 and if she were to enter the European Championship. Quote: Up to now she played 5 tournaments with a total of 25 games and hasn't lost a single one. I think it would be rather strange if she would be the next European champion, especially after all the recent debates about the rules... Kyeong-nang Kang played in the UK in 2007 and visited Belgium (who seemed appreciative) http://www.gofed.be/en/federation/history and no doubt other European countries. She has played in 4 European tournaments in the last 2 months. She is not registered for the EGC in Finland. The proposal is that players who become part of the European Go community should be able to become European Champion. Quote: my conclusion: Playing EGF tournaments has nothing to do with your status as European or non European. Passport, and to a certain degree, years of residence in an EGF member country do. If you live in Europe and take part in activities with Europeans you become in a sense European by virtue of exposure and acceptance of our values, culture, history and language. This proposal substitutes "integration" in place of "years of residence" and rewards "service to European Go". Go is not about the colour of one's skin or the possession of a passport. Why do I get the feeling that the ideas of Geert Wilders are taking hold among strong European players ? |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
This is a delicate discussion that is always in danger of being drawn to the mud through inappropriate attribution of motives. richardamullens wrote: Why do I get the feeling that the ideas of Geert Wilders are taking hold among strong European players? This is an example for "drawing into the mud". |
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| Author: | richardamullens [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Harleqin wrote: This is a delicate discussion that is always in danger of being drawn to the mud through inappropriate attribution of motives. richardamullens wrote: Why do I get the feeling that the ideas of Geert Wilders are taking hold among strong European players? This is an example for "drawing into the mud". This is an example of selective quoting where the subject is removed from its context. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Speaking as an admin, I trust that a touchy subject like this will provide the posters an opportunity to demonstrate their eloquence, fine manners, and restraint.
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| Author: | karaklis [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Thanks Joaz. richardamullens wrote: If you live in Europe and take part in activities with Europeans A combination of these two sounds reasonable to me: 1) Having lived in Europe for xyz years 2) Having played xyz tournaments in Europe - or alternatively: playing tournaments in Europe on a regular base, e.g. xyz tournaments the last year, i.e. between the last and the upcoming congress tournament I'd like to hear some valid arguments against this. |
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| Author: | freegame [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
This discussion is already going in the wrong direction.  Let’s try again:It made me think of this threat started by Harleqin. Let’s try to use that approach and look at the problem/question and not go to the solution immediately. Question: Who qualifies as European? Answer: Depends on the definition of European. Question: What is the definition of European? Answer: a native or inhabitant of Europe. (just look in the dictionary) Now let’s take a look at the suggested definition. Question: is “attainment of a threshold number of European tournaments” a definition of European? Answer: No. Let’s have a look at your suggestion again: Question: What happens if change the criteria to the one suggested? Answer: It will no longer be a European tournament. Question: What happens if the suggested criteria is added to the "European" criteria? Answer: It will ad further limitations to the group already limited by the definition of "European". Question: What will a tournament with this suggested criteria be? Answer: It will determine the strongest player active in EGF organized tournaments. Now let’s finally try to find a solution for the wish to allow people who show commitment to Go in Europe, but are not European, to play in EGF organized closed tournaments. A possible solution would be to not use the word European, which by its definition excludes a lot of people, but use for example EGF instead, which does not exclude anyone. An "EGF championship" can have as a criteria “attainment of a threshold number of European tournaments”. This way you can exclude a lot of non Europeans (your so called tourists), but also include non Europeans who show commitment to European Go. All without having to argue about the definition of European. |
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| Author: | karaklis [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Well, I'd not be nitpicking about the exact name, so I'm fine with your idea, Laurens. Then there would be an EGF champion and an open champion. |
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| Author: | richardamullens [ Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
freegame wrote: This discussion is already going in the wrong direction. Let’s try again:Now let’s finally try to find a solution for the wish to allow people who show commitment to Go in Europe, but are not European, to play in EGF organized closed tournaments. A possible solution would be to not use the word European, which by its definition excludes a lot of people, but use for example EGF instead, which does not exclude anyone. An "EGF championship" can have as a criteria “attainment of a threshold number of European tournaments”. This way you can exclude a lot of non Europeans (your so called tourists), but also include non Europeans who show commitment to European Go. All without having to argue about the definition of European. Fine, but the reality is that some people want to exclude non-Europeans because they feel that they have an unfair advantage (being raised in a Go friendly environment) and because they want the prize money for themselves. Of course they will deny this and say it is because people are interested in who is the best European player (when we know that anyway). In any event I feel that you ignore the cultural argument that I gave for becoming a European. If you disallow this it is like saying to that person "you can't become one of us". In all probability someone who participates in a threshold number of European events will absorb our culture and contribute to it. Finally I don't really see the problem if a 20 year old Korean woman were to become the European champion - providing she can converse intelligibly in a European language - it's fine by me. |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
richardamullens wrote: Harleqin wrote: This is a delicate discussion that is always in danger of being drawn to the mud through inappropriate attribution of motives. richardamullens wrote: Why do I get the feeling that the ideas of Geert Wilders are taking hold among strong European players? This is an example for "drawing into the mud". This is an example of selective quoting where the subject is removed from its context. It does not get better with context. The context just shows how you dragged a reasonable standpoint artifically into the direction where you could make the inappropriate comparison. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
richardamullens wrote: the reality is that some people want to exclude non-Europeans because they feel that they have an unfair advantage (being raised in a Go friendly environment) [...] Of course they will deny this and say it is because people are interested in who is the best European player (when we know that anyway). You are spreading bad rumours only. If you call it reality, you must also name people who, according to you, want to exclude non-Europeans because they feel that they have an unfair advantage (being raised in a Go friendly environment). |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
willemien wrote: I think it is accepted that a wider body of people than just "passport holders of an EGF member country" should be allowed to participate. Unfortunately, not all accept that. Some (e.g., some EGF Committee members) want to define it like that. It would turn a European into an EGF Championship because, e.g., also Greece and Belorussia are European countries but not EGF members. Since fewer countries would be allowed, the value of the championship would also decrease. Also the title "European Championship" would be pretence instead of describing reality then. |
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| Author: | kirkmc [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Why should it be any different for go than for sports? If you want to compete in the European championships of a sport, you have to have a nationality of one of the countries that is considered part of Europe (though that list of countries seems to be a bit fluid depending on the sport). |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
That other sports "do not know" what Europe is does not imply that Go would have to be equally illiterate. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
freegame wrote: This discussion is already going in the wrong direction. Let’s try again:It made me think of this threat started by Harleqin. Let’s try to use that approach and look at the problem/question and not go to the solution immediately. Question: Who qualifies as European? Answer: Depends on the definition of European. Question: What is the definition of European? Answer: a native or inhabitant of Europe. (just look in the dictionary) Actually, this already raises a pretty important issue. Many of these Koreans are inhabitants of Europe - i.e. they live there without immediate plans on not doing so. They may not have lived there for long enough to warrant dual nationality etc, but by the definition you have given, they are European. Therefore, either a) this is not a valid definition for the purposes of the EC, or b) it is valid, and we have less of a problem as many of the top players where there could be debate (Cho Seok-Bin, Hwang In-Seong, Fan Hui, Jai Dunfu, Guo Juan) can consider themselves European and are therefore eligible. |
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| Author: | tealeaf [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
Of all the suggestions I'v seen, I seem to prefer the French approach from the original post: a minimum of two years of residence in a European country. I really don't understand the problem with that. To be honest, I'm baffled by all the debate that I see on this subject. Do people not want to have lots of high-level players taking part in the European go community? The requirement for participation in a certain number of tournaments seems unfair -- why do we not require the same thing for existing European players? |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: who qualifies as european? |
topazg wrote: ...Guo Juan... Note that Guo Juan holds a Dutch passport, and is therefore eligible to be European Champion regardless (she was in fact European Champion four times, in 1994-1997, when she was still actively participating). I think that an X year residency requirement is reasonable. Personally, I think 2 years is enough. I don't like an "active in European Go" requirement much, because I think you should either apply something like that to all players or you should not apply it at all. And if you apply it to all players you suddenly exclude, for example, European players that decide to study in Asia for a few years. |
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