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Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1171		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  breakfast [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
For side events, such as blitz, team, 13-13 and so on
Author:  breakfast [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
I voted for cups.
We had very nice cups on EGC in Tuchola!

50 Euro cash prizes for side events, like on EGC in Sweden, is not the best option, I think.
Author:  Harleqin [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
I think that a cup is good, perhaps also smaller ones for 2nd and 3rd place, but I also think that it should be accompanied by a cash prize, even if it is small.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
Personally, I prefer some kind of permanent memento, like a cup. A cash prize is also nice, but it need only be a token amount.

Go books or similar items are mainly a good prize because organizers can often get them at a discount, so it is more economical than cash prizes.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
What a poll! I need to vote "others" because I prefer BIG cash prizes! The side events are not jokes but "hard work"!
Author:  topazg [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
Perhaps the wording would be better as just "cash prizes" - small to some people could mean 5 Euros, and I can see people never voting for it as it stands - I'm not sure how helpful that will be with regards to the information in people's votes :)
Author:  LovroKlc [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
Yeah. Cup accompanied with a paper diploma is a great suggestion.
Author:  Jonas [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
Helel wrote:
I'm against cash prizes even in the main tournament.
Money is the root of all evil, and we would all do best to stay away from the stuff.
Play for honor or not at all. :twisted:

As for minor prizes I prefer cups and similar. Something you can look back to with joy in 30-40 years.


Oh gosh, I guess I've read more than 250 posts from helel and in EVERYone was the twisted evil smile. This leads me to always think about Helel when I see this damn smile...
Author:  Boywing [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
I want to see cups and diplomas as prices.
I think no money need to be involved as prices in amateur tournaments.
Instead I can imagine a lower playing fee.

I see that some strong and semi-strong players want to get some payment for using their brains more efficient than others.
For those I would like to see an European pro circus with sponsors, high entry fees and high cash prices.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
As a general principle amateurs should be playing mainly for honour or self-satisfaction. But most people would not blench at modest cash prizes.

As a further general principle, all entrants to an event should expect equal treatment. But most people would not blench at stronger players (given that go is a competitive game) being accorded a little extra honour, a bigger cup, or even a little extra cash.

Where European go congresses appear to have gone a little awry (do remember to see this in the big picture of a fantastically successful enterprise) is that these general principles have wobbled - some prizes have not been modest and treatment of all entrants has not always been even. Greed has eneterd the scene.

If the entry fee to cover costs only is 100 euros and if the fee to include modest cash prizes is 101 euros, few people would quibble at the extra. If the fee to include big cash prizes was 120 euros, and every group got decent cash prizes, then I'd expect some disgruntlement in the wallet area but acceptance because of a sense of fairness. But if the fee of 120 euros is meant to include big cash prizes for strong players only, I'd expect almost total disgruntlement, either because of the extra financial burden or the lack of fairness, or both.

The latter seems to be the situation we might face at the moment. It would be interesting to know when cash prizes were introduced and why, but I suspect that the law of unintended consequences has struck again and that the original motives have been subverted. If so, we need a correction on the tiller.

There are good reasons, of course, for entry fees that are higher than absolutely necessary. An obvious one is to provide some insurance against the unexpected. A less obvious one, but one which I consider a worthy reward, is the scope it gives the organisers to give their event a bit of distinction or flair, or to guide the development of go in a direction they favour. I suspect that too often in practice totally exhausted organisers who find they have a cash surplus just pile it onto the prize fund without thinking enough about how it could be better used (though some do, and I salute them). It's difficult to do anything at the event, of course, by the time it becomes obvious there is some surplus. Still, I think it would be good to consider longer-term schemes such as creating very reduced fees for young people, or scholarships. The organisers can still promote their own aims, or just get the kudos if that's enough - for example scholarships could be named after their event.

For the specific case of the European champion, I'd say that the chance to compete in the various international pro events for the following year is financial reward enough.
Author:  topazg [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
John Fairbairn wrote:
If the entry fee to cover costs only is 100 euros and if the fee to include modest cash prizes is 101 euros, few people would quibble at the extra. If the fee to include big cash prizes was 120 euros, and every group got decent cash prizes, then I'd expect some disgruntlement in the wallet area but acceptance because of a sense of fairness. But if the fee of 120 euros is meant to include big cash prizes for strong players only, I'd expect almost total disgruntlement, either because of the extra financial burden or the lack of fairness, or both.


I agree with this whole-heartedly, and it was one reason why I was happy with Alex's idea of having the supergroup eligible people paying a surcharge of an extra 100 euros for being in the supergroup that tops up the prize for the top end of the tournament. That way, it is only those in the running that have to pay extra, and they are all with a chance of getting their investment back if they believe in their place in that supergroup.
Author:  breakfast [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
John Fairbairn wrote:
For the specific case of the European champion, I'd say that the chance to compete in the various international pro events for the following year is financial reward enough.


We don't have such prizes as Fujitsu cup or Chunlan invitations. EGF may held addional events or just send someone they want to send.

Last year in Groningen together with my wife we spent near 4000 euro. I got 475 euro back as the first prize. I won Fujitsu cup preliminary (by internet) later, but it was not included to EGC prize
Author:  breakfast [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
RobertJasiek wrote:
What a poll! I need to vote "others" because I prefer BIG cash prizes! The side events are not jokes but "hard work"!


Robert, you played more congresses than I played. What was the biggest side event prize you saw?
I remember magnetic Go board (near 100 USD worth).
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
breakfast wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
What a poll! I need to vote "others" because I prefer BIG cash prizes! The side events are not jokes but "hard work"!


Robert, you played more congresses than I played. What was the biggest side event prize you saw?
I remember magnetic Go board (near 100 USD worth).


What counts as side events? :)

In Groningen, first prize in individual side events (9x9, 13x13, lightning, bonus) was 100 euro (60 for 2nd place, 30 for 3rd).

Group events (rengo, team) had larger prizes, but after sharing they were smaller per person.

Pairgo had 500 euro main prize (so 250 each) because of sponsorship from the Japanese Pairgo Association.

Rapid had 200 euro main prize (120 for 2nd and 50 for 3rd).

Weekend had 700 euro total for top prizes (shared four way because four players tied for 1st place)
Author:  richardamullens [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
breakfast wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
What a poll! I need to vote "others" because I prefer BIG cash prizes! The side events are not jokes but "hard work"!


Robert, you played more congresses than I played. What was the biggest side event prize you saw?
I remember magnetic Go board (near 100 USD worth).


That is what I won in a low (but not the lowest) division in Amsterdam in the early 1970s. The runner up received a Japanese book of tsumego. At the time I thought I was fortunate, but in retrospect the book may have been better for my go. Perhaps there were 16 people in a division and 8 divisions. In the tournament I tied with a German player though when we met he beat me. The result was decided by a lightning game. This year in Amsterdam the prizes were envelopes containing, one assumes, cash. Who says that tournament administration has improved ? I wonder if anyone has the records for those early tournaments.

At the Zomergo last year I won a bottle of beer http://www.rhodamine.eu/~richard/diary/ ... _1881.jpeg for 4 out of 5 - I was also very happy with that although it did not last as long as the magnetic set.

Vouchers for books may be suitable for weaker players - particularly if accompanied by a sticker to go in the book identifying the event.
Author:  PeterHB [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
richardamullens wrote:
Vouchers for books may be suitable for weaker players - particularly if accompanied by a sticker to go in the book identifying the event.


I whole-heartedly agree with this suggestion. At the 1kyu and below level this seems the best suggestion to me. The sticker specifically stating the name of the competition, the particular event and placement in that got you the prize. From an event outside Go I have a book with a nameplate of this type that has kept its place in my possessions ahead of medals and plastic cups for other things.
Author:  Bantari [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
breakfast wrote:
Last year in Groningen together with my wife we spent near 4000 euro.


This number is amazing.

I spent 3 weeks in Italy with my wife, including airfare, hotels, restaurants, shows, gondola rides, and all kinds of other cool stuff and it cost me slightly less than that.
I had no idea attending Congress was so expensive! Its not how I remember Congresses to be... What changed?
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
breakfast wrote:
What was the biggest side event prize you saw?


My problem is: most of them I do not see. Winners get them and the kibitz sees only an envelop or the like.

I recall EGC 2000 had reasonable prizes for some of the side events but small prizes for other side events: Lightning first prize was either DEM 500 or 800 (divide about by 2 for EUR) plus a good book from a special bookshop sponsor. What I got for 2nd places in Blind 13x13 and Torus Go was a t-shirt / mug.

For 1993 9x9 2nd place I got 6 mugs. For one 13x13 2nd places 1 t-shirt, for another 13x13 2nd place I could exchange one trophy, which I was about to add to trash, into a book, for the third 13x13 (I had to organize the tournament so that it would be held at all!) 2nd place last year see Herman's post.

I consider such small prizes disrespect of the winners, especially in comparison to the congress entry fees. It is better not to give any prize than a too small prize. Then at least one knows that it was for honour only.

Only for a trivial tournament (handicap, 2001) with only 5 players, which I won, a mug was about appropriate.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
Bantari, one can spend any amount of money during a congress, depending on the accommodation. But maybe flights from Russia can also be expensive at times?
Author:  Bantari [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which EGC prizes do you prefer?
RobertJasiek wrote:
Bantari, one can spend any amount of money during a congress, depending on the accommodation. But maybe flights from Russia can also be expensive at times?


I understand that.
I could have probably spent millions in Italy by staying in best hotels, eating in best restaurants, having personal chauffeur drive me around, and so on... this is not the point.

The point is - was the 4000 euro what the Congress costs an average player, or is the amount inflated by personal preferences of Alex and his wife?
Not that there is anything wrong with having personal preferences.

If its the latter, the comparison with prizes is meaningless.
If the former, then it is indeed an issue.

I am not invested in that, I just find it interesting.

PS. It is hard for me to believe an inter-European flight being substantially more expensive as the flight from San Diego to Rome, but I have not checked the prices, so it might well be.
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