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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Eek, planning...
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Well, to start things off, I'm a horrible planner. Particularly of things relevant to reality: writing a spec is okay (although, really, I usually wish I didn't know that it helps, and didn't force myself to do it), but forcing myself to do something regularly during the summer holidays?

Oh well, I guess there's no avoiding it.

Due to my level of free time is extremely uneven per day, I'm going to organise this per week. And so, per week, for the next... eight weeks, I intend to do the following:
  • Two pages of Cho's tsumego collection (intermediate -- will move to a higher level it proves too easy).
  • Two of these tsumego I will analyse in-depth here.
  • Three serious games on 19x19, each reviewed individually.
  • Two games on a board size other than 19x19
  • One game every two weeks posted here. I must have lost that game, or won by a very small margin.

I'm afraid I've started too late this week to get most done; I can analyse two tsumegos, though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 1
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X X . O X .
$$ | . O O O . X .
$$ | O O X X X . .
$$ | X X . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Most of the tsumegos in `intermediate' have so far been reasonably simple, but this is one of the ones where I ran into a ko, and couldn't seem to work around it. Possibilities:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[W]PB[B]AW[ea][bb][cb][db][ac][bc]AB[ba][ca][fa][fb][cc][dc][ec][ad][bd]TR[aa][eb]C[As far as I can tell, these two points are miai.]
(;B[eb]
(;W[da]C[White may not connect here.]
;B[ab])
(;W[aa]
(;B[ab]C[Let us assume black loses the ko...]
;W[ao]
;B[ap]
;W[aa]
;B[bp]
;W[da]C[Alive.])
(;B[da]
;W[ea]
(;B[da]
;W[ca]C[Alive.])
(;B[ca]
;W[da]C[Alive.])
(;B[ba]
;W[ca]C[Alive.]))))
(;B[aa]
;W[eb]C[This seems to be a seki.]
(;B[ab]
;W[da]
;B[ba]
;W[aa]
;B[ab]C[If white wins the ko:]
;W[ap]
;B[ao]
;W[aa]
;B[bo]
;W[ca]C[Alive.])
(;B[da]
;W[ab]
;B[ba]
;W[ca])))[/sgf-full]

Either I'm missing something, or a ko like this is considered a valid solution.

Also, the SGF viewer here seems to not like the triangles... Might fix that later, hope it doesn't bother anyone at the moment.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 2
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X . X X O .
$$ | . X . X X O .
$$ | . . . O O O .
$$ | . . O , . . .
$$ | . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Including this one because I liked the trickyness and sacrifice.

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[W]PB[B]AW[fa][fb][dc][ec][fc][cd][be][cf]AB[ba][da][ea][bb][db][eb]C[Interesting trick. Under the stones tesuji, I think it's called.]
(;B[cb]C[This is my first instinct, but it doesn't work.]
;W[ab]
(;B[bc]
;W[ac]
;B[bd]
;W[ad])
(;B[ac]
;W[bc]))
(;B[bc]
;W[cb]
;B[cc]
;W[ca]
(;B[bd]C[Can't do this.]
;W[db])
(;B[db]
;W[eb]
;B[da]
;W[ac]
;B[ad]
(;W[bd]
;B[ab])
(;W[ab]
;B[bd]))))[/sgf-full]
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:19 pm 
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The second problem is indeed very nice - and I'm ashamed to say that I didn't get it before losing the willpower to avoid looking at your thoughts. (I did get the failure you showed, and saw that it failed, very quickly though.)

On the first problem though (hidden in case you want to think some more about it):

White to play can certainly make a ko by throwing in at A19. But black playing at the same point kills without ko (barring strange situations elsewhere on the board, although in japanese rules I believe even this wouldn't help white), as it's a bent four in the corner. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't be the first time...
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Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Sevis wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 1
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X X . O X .
$$ | . O O O . X .
$$ | O O X X X . .
$$ | X X . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Most of the tsumegos in `intermediate' have so far been reasonably simple, but this is one of the ones where I ran into a ko, and couldn't seem to work around it. Possibilities:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[W]PB[B]AW[ea][bb][cb][db][ac][bc]AB[ba][ca][fa][fb][cc][dc][ec][ad][bd]TR[aa][eb]C[As far as I can tell, these two points are miai.]
(;B[eb]
(;W[da]C[White may not connect here.]
;B[ab])
(;W[aa]
(;B[ab]C[Let us assume black loses the ko...]
;W[ao]
;B[ap]
;W[aa]
;B[bp]
;W[da]C[Alive.])
(;B[da]
;W[ea]
(;B[da]
;W[ca]C[Alive.])
(;B[ca]
;W[da]C[Alive.])
(;B[ba]
;W[ca]C[Alive.]))))
(;B[aa]
;W[eb]C[This seems to be a seki.]
(;B[ab]
;W[da]
;B[ba]
;W[aa]
;B[ab]C[If white wins the ko:]
;W[ap]
;B[ao]
;W[aa]
;B[bo]
;W[ca]C[Alive.])
(;B[da]
;W[ab]
;B[ba]
;W[ca])))[/sgf-full]

Either I'm missing something, or a ko like this is considered a valid solution.

Also, the SGF viewer here seems to not like the triangles... Might fix that later, hope it doesn't bother anyone at the moment.


A19 kills because of bent-four-in-the-corner (dead, no Ko in the japanese rulset). See: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4088

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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:57 am 
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Ack. I read the two posts, procrastinated with replying, and then forgot all about this thread for several days. Sorry. :(

I haven't heard of a bent four in the corner being dead -- it's certainly nice to know, seeing as I'm sure I've had let it live in past games. Also interesting is that I have to make sure not to create the actual bent four shape. Well, hopefully tsumego will make some more sense now; thank you for the input. :)


In other news -- I won a simultaneous game against a 1 dan with five stones handicap yesterday. :D Unfortunately, it was at a club, and so I don't have a replay. A noteworthy position I remember is (note that the shape of M15 was muchbetter):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . . X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


I'm sure I got several stones wrong, but the point is the connection between M18 and Q18. I had read out that O18 doesn't work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 7 5 6 9 . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 1 4 O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . 3 X 8 . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 1 4 O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . 3 X 7 8 O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . 9 5 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 O 2 1 3 O . O . |
$$ . . . X 7 6 4 X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 1 O O 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . 3 . X O X O O O . O . |
$$ . . . X O X X X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


Instead, my opponent played a puzzling move that worked:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . . X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


After that, cutting proved to be impossible, but it was still a very fun game. I attempted this, but it failed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . W . . 4 6 W . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 7 O 3 5 . O . O . |
$$ . . . X 2 1 8 X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . 3 W 2 4 O O W . . . . |
$$ . 5 . 1 X O X X . O . O . |
$$ . . . X O . O X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]



I still haven't done the two pages of tsumego I promised -- will be doing those today and tomorrow, as quickly as I can get them right. I also intend to play through the games in the latest NGoB magazine, and a few more in 9-Dan Showdown (I got the book for my birthday, and have been paying it less attention than it deserves). Finally, I should also play on KGS, but I'm not sure if I'll have the time today.
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Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:54 am 
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Yes, this is the monkey-jump-connection (a large knight's move [ogeima] from the second to the first line). If you do a bunch of Tsumegos, you will definitely come across this move. (As far as I know, it is introduced in the Graded Go Problems for Beginners series.)

Generally, you have to be aware of this shape on the second line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . a . b . . . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . . W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Now if it's White's turn, he can connect by playing either 'a' or 'b'.


See: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump and http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJumpConnection

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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Thanks -- interesting, I hadn't expected that.



I've tried doing some more tsumego, and I am severely disappointed by myself. I've taken another look at the Cho's first book, and while I can solve most very quickly, there are a few amongst them that I simply can't get, even if I'm using an SGF editor. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . X O X . .
$$ | . . O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]


My instinct was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 4 X O X . .
$$ | 5 1 O O X . .
$$ | . 2 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]


Which is, if I'm not mistaken, a seki.

The key point is, if I'm not mistaken, is where white responds in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . X O X . .
$$ | 2 . O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 1 X . . . . .[/go]


Now, if black plays on it, white may respond like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 6 5 X O X . .
$$ | 1 2 O O X . .
$$ | . 4 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 1 2 . O X . .
$$ | X O O O X . .
$$ | . O O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | X X . . . . .[/go]


And this is a bent four. However, white can play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 X O X . .
$$ | 1 5 O O X . .
$$ | . 4 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]


And this results with the same seki-in-gote. I have the feeling it must also be dead (or some other variation... I can't find any bent fours white can't avoid, though). Hm.
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Offline Toge
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:13 pm 
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If it seems like opponent's response is powerful, it may give you a clue.
"Opponent's vital point is my vital point"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 X O X . .
$$ | 1 4 O O X . .
$$ | . 3 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 5 X . . . . .[/go]


Here I think the problem was that you hadn't internatized the snapback tesuji and instead played on the outside earlier.
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 4 1 X O X . .
$$ | 3 2 O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 1 2 . O X . .
$$ | X O O O X . .
$$ | 3 . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]


Wrong. But :b5: seems like the only move... Thanks for the hint, Toge, I'll take a look at it tomorrow if I don't get it. I hadn't really been considering this move, as that point doesn't seem likely to be the key point... Hm. (I can see that it may very well be, though, as that's where white's stone ends up...
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #9 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:55 pm 
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And, looks like I misunderstood the advice. Oh well, I've been running it through my head since I read the answer, and I think I might be able to solve similar ones myself soon... Eventually...

I've played a game yesterday that I lost rather badly. It was 2 handicap, but I doubt I would have been able to win even if it had been an even game. Will post it in the Game Analysis section, with questions.
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Offline Simba
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:35 pm 
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If it's any concellation, I'm working through that same Cho Chikun book and got that one wrong too ^_^;;; (I'm around 5k).

As for the connection:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . . W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Move 'c' also works. This is the 'small monkey jump'. The monkey jump is usually an endgame move. In my book of endgame problems, the author says sometimes the large monkey jump is best, but sometimes the small monkey jump is better for endgame. I'm not entirely sure why, but I suspect one of the reasons might be a sente/gote issue. Sente in the endgame (well, in general) is pretty huge.

Good luck on your way up :) !
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Oh, wow. I hadn't considered the small monkey jump at all, although I can't read out any sequence to cut it. Hm, second to first line jumps are proving to be more and more useful as I keep learning...

Thanks for the help everyone. ^^

This week's two tsumego:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . X .
$$ | O O . . . X .
$$ | . O . O O X .
$$ | . O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Please note that there is a mistake in this SGF. In fact, it doesn't show the solution at all, but I'm currently too tired to fix it. Will be updated eventually. ^^
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[W]PB[B]AW[ab][bb][bc][dc][ec][bd]AB[fa][fb][fc][dd][fd][be][ce][ee]
(;B[ca]C[This was my first instinct.]
;W[ba]
;B[ad]C[This is necessary.]
(;W[db]C[This, however, seems to live.

This is move is very important.
]
;B[da]
;W[cb]
(;B[cd]
;W[ea]
(;B[eb]
;W[da])
(;B[da]
;W[eb]))
(;B[ea]
;W[cd]))
(;W[da]
;B[db]C[This way, white dies.]
(;W[cb]
;B[eb])
(;W[eb]
;B[ea]
;W[cb]
;B[da])))
(;B[da]C[This was second instinct, but the other branch hints that it shouldn't work: the point white needed to live was D18.]
;W[ca]
;B[cb]
;W[ba]
(;B[db]
;W[ad]C[Better than in the first branch, but still alive.])
(;B[ad]
;W[db]
;B[ea]
;W[cc]))
(;B[db]C[Seeing as white played here to live, let's try to play here to kill.]
(;W[eb]
;B[ea]
;W[cb]
;B[da]C[C19 and C16 are now miai for the kill.]
(;W[ad]
;B[ca])
(;W[ca]
;B[ad]))
(;W[cb]
;B[da]C[C19 and A16 are NOT miai for the kill.])
(;W[da]
;B[eb]
;W[cb]
(;B[ea]C[Black should not play this.]
;W[ad]
;B[ca]
;W[ba])
(;B[ad]))))[/sgf-full]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X X X . . . ,
$$ | . X . X O . X . . .
$$ | O O O O . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]


In this one, I give a fairly detailed description of how I try to approach tsumego, but I don't find the answer.

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[13]KM[0.00]
PW[W]PB[B]AW[ek][al][bl][cl][dl][fl]AB[bj][dj][ej][fj][bk][dk][gk][gl][il][gm]C[(Apologies for putting the tsumego on the bottom: this way, the coordinates are the same no matter the board size.)

First of all E1 looks like a good place to play. Usually, the wedge-like structure of D2-E3-F2 indicates an extra eye there, that can be poked out by playing at E1. In this case, however...

(see the E1 variations)

---

As can be seen from the variations, B1, D1, and F1 all seem to work as defences for white. Those are, therefore, likely to be variations that work.

(see those there variations)

---

And, strangely, none of those three seem to work. It seems like capturing at E2 is important.

Two lines currently seem the best:
E1 F1 E2 D1 E2 F3
B1 F1 E2 E1 F3 D1

Apparently, E2 is an important point to get. Both of those variations show black being one turn too late: perhaps aiming at it immediately is best?

(see the F3 variations)

---

Hm, that doesn't work either. E2 is auto-atari, and A1 looks plain stupid, so let's try C3.

(see those variations)

---

E2 is the only move not explored so far, so perhaps it is the answer after all?

(see those variations)

---

A1 does not seem worth trying. Therefore, a variation has been missed somewhere...

C1 hasn't been explored much, maybe that's it? B1 looks most promising, though, particularly the ko.

So, erm, there. Apparently, there's no solution I can find, so the problem is left as an excercise to the reader. Hehe.]
(;B[em]
(;W[fm]
(;B[dm]
;W[el]
;B[cm]
;W[bm]C[White is just a little too big.])
(;B[el]
;W[dm]
(;B[el]
;W[em]
;B[fk]C[If white reacted to this, white would die, but E3 is tiny.]
;W[bm])
(;B[fk]
;W[el]C[This is also bad.]))
(;B[cm]C[This is obviously wrong.]
;W[dm]))
(;W[dm]C[This also works. F1 and A1 are miai]
(;B[bm]
;W[fm])
(;B[fm]
;W[bm]))
(;W[el]C[This, on the other hand, does not.]
;B[fm]
;W[dm])
(;W[bm]C[And this, once again, does. All other moves do not, as you can read out if you want.]
;B[dm]
;W[fm]
;B[el]
;W[cm]))
(;B[bm]
(;W[dm]
;B[fm]C[This kills.])
(;W[fm]
(;B[cm]
(;W[dm]
;B[el]
;W[em]
;B[fk]C[So does this.])
(;W[em]
;B[fk]C[And this.])
(;W[el]
;B[dm]C[But this makes a seki! Therefore, we want white to play E1 or D1.])
(;W[fk]
(;B[em]
;W[el]
;B[dm]
;W[am]C[White lives.])
(;B[el]
;W[em]C[Also lives.])))
(;B[el]
;W[em]
(;B[cm]
;W[fk]
;B[dm]
;W[am]C[White lives.])
(;B[fk]
;W[cm]
;B[el]C[This makes a ko -- not very good. However, white cannot connect.]))
(;B[em]C[This is better, but it doesn't stop D1.]
;W[dm]C[From these variations, we see that D1 seems more important than B1.]))
(;W[em]C[This doesn't work at all.]
;B[cm]))
(;B[dm]C[Seeing as B1 failed when white played D1, let's try that.]
;W[em]C[Now, however, E4 makes it feel like D1 should have been at B1 or C1. No moves look right, so I won't read further.

(further sequence added later)]
;B[fm]
;W[cm]
;B[fk]
;W[el]C[No, no, all this really lives. D1 is useless.])
(;B[fm]C[This is the last move that looked correct, so it makes sense to try it.]
;W[em]C[As far as I can see, this makes B1 and C1 miai. However, seeing as capturing E3 and F2 would lead to D1 becoming a false eye, B1 is better.

There's also F3, but playing that simply leads to white connecting.

Now, it once again feels like E1 was the key point... ]
(;B[bm]
;W[cm]C[There is no stone at F3, so white still lives...]
;B[fk]
;W[el])
(;B[cm]
;W[bm])
(;B[fk]
;W[el]C[Same miai for life.]))
(;B[fk]
;W[el]C[White is too big to kill.]
(;B[cm]
;W[bm])
(;B[fm]
;W[em]))
(;B[cm]
(;W[em]C[This doesn't work for white.]
;B[bm]
;W[el])
(;W[fm]C[White can still play this, though.
]
(;B[el]C[A throw-in to get white to play E2.]
;W[em]
;B[bm]
;W[fk]C[White still lives.])
(;B[fk]
;W[el]C[White lives.])
(;B[bm]
;W[dm]C[Only move.]
;B[el]
;W[em]
;B[fk]C[White is dead -- meaning F1 was wrong.]))
(;W[bm]
(;B[em]C[Can't do this due to D1 living.]
;W[dm]
;B[fm])
(;B[dm]
;W[em]C[This lives too, though, and is better for white.])))
(;B[el]
;W[em]C[This clearly lives.]
;B[fm]
;W[cm]
;B[fk]
;W[el]))[/sgf-full]



PS. I would appreciate if someone posted a diagram of a final result of a 9x9 game between two SDK players. I think I want to try `reversing' the game, but for that, I need to not have seen any of it (except the final state). A hidden SGF would be appreciated, too.


Last edited by Sevis on Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:21 pm 
Oza
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"c" runs into this problem, though

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 3 . 4 . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . 2 W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #13 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:52 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . a 5 3 X .
$$ | O O 4 1 2 X .
$$ | . O . O O X .
$$ | b O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


In one of your variations, are you sure "a" and "b" are miai to kill?
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #14 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:36 am 
Lives with ko
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Oh, wow. I blame it on making the SGFs at 4 o'clock or so. :P Thanks for pointing it out, will fix somewhere in the near future.

Hm, and this means I haven't solved it yet. Hmm.



I need to do more tsumego.
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:26 am 
Lives with ko
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Aha!

Solution to 4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4 :b9: at :b5:
$$ ---------------
$$ | 8 3 5 6 . X .
$$ | O O 1 4 . X .
$$ | . O 2 O O X .
$$ | 7 O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline TioMio
 Post subject: Re: Eek, planning...
Post #16 Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:54 pm 
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What about this (about solution to 4)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 . 4 . X .
$$ | O O 1 . . X .
$$ | . O . O O X .
$$ | 3 O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 . 4 . X .
$$ | O O 1 7 8 X .
$$ | . O 5 O O X .
$$ | 3 O 6 X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 . 4 . X .
$$ | O O 1 8 7 X .
$$ | . O 6 O O X .
$$ | 3 O 5 X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Then 1 at c18 doesn't seem to work. Though perhaps 4 could be somewhere else to maximize profit. But I just proofread this 4.
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