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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #101 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:37 am 
Honinbo

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moyoaji wrote:
The biggest thing, however, is that I want to build a brain database of go positions. Even if I don't consciously remember every position I should still retain some memory of the games.


To do that it's easier to play over pro games. :) As an added bonus, you get to build a brain database of good plays.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #102 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:16 pm 
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So I got in one blitz game the next day and then realized that you guy's advice was probably right. Not only did I lose horribly by resignation based on, as vst said, not thinking, but because it again wasn't any fun and still didn't seem to be all that fast. (It's not like your thinking was of much value in other games anyway... ;-))

The reason I thought I could get in so many games was because blitz games would be faster. However, I realized that the game still took about 15-20 minutes even though the game didn't even last 140 moves AND it took over 5 minutes for the game to be matchmade in automatch. That would still equate to only 2 games an hour or so assuming they don't all end that quickly - maybe 3 games if the game is an early resignation. So one of the main things I wanted from blitz - an ability to play a lot of games quickly - wouldn't even happen. (Why didn't you do this math for your first game? :ugeek:)

Finally, I don't even like the idea of posting games like this because I didn't put the thought into the game when I was playing it so why should I expect others to put thought into reviewing it? (Why do you ever expect anyone to review one of your games? Do an extra 5 minutes really make your games that much more interesting or somehow profound? :roll:)

I may play a few more blitz games later. Now that I'm on break until January I should have time to play a good number of games. But I think the time would be better spent playing fuller games. I like narcoxnicke's idea of doing 5-10 minute games with decent byo-yomi. Maybe 5 main with 5 20 second byo-yomis? That would probably be much more playable than 1 main with 3 10 second periods. (Okay, I guess that's all well and good, but why do you feel the need to post this? Why not just go play the freaking games?! :scratch:)

And finally, I will also take your advice, Bill. However, I do worry that is feeding my addiction for looking at pro games over actually playing go. I need to apply what I have been learning about tactics and direction in real games if I want to learn, but I can agree that pro games would be a better source for a "brain database" than my own games. (Bill, I've loved your stuff in the past. I remember when you showed him how he actually lost that "brilliant" game of his back in October. :lol: But seriously, this is like telling a couch potato "Quit going outside; you don't live in a very nice part of the country. Instead watch nature documentaries of beautiful places. It'll be more enjoyable and you'll learn more!" :-|)

So I think I will continue to look at professional games over the break, but I will also plan on going back to my original plan. ( :shock: You mean it?)

And that means every week I will: (Don't list it. They can go back to the first po-)
    1. Play go - at least averaging one game a day on the KGS and still regularly attending my local go club
    2. Study from a go book - at least one chapter OR Watch two hour long go lectures on YouTube
    3. Do go problems - at least 5 per day, making sure they are around my skill level
    4. Review games - at least one of my own and one professional game
    5. Post here with what I have done and what I have learned

The game every day will be a challenge, but it should be possible and I may use narco's suggestion and do some semi-blitz games to get in more. The book I'm doing now is Tesuji so I can sort of double-dip on the go problems and reading. And as for reviewing games and posting I do at least a quick review before posting each game here so I basically double-dip on that. (And now I am torn. On the one hand I'm proud that you want to go back to what you originally promised. On the other I am upset you reposted - word for word - the list you made back in June. Do I give him praise or punishment?)

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm not sure how much of a role blitz games will play in by march to shodan, but I do know your support has been invaluable thusfar. :)

(Random Japanese and a sappy outro... Yeah, I've decided now: :tmbdown:)

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I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #103 Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:21 am 
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So far so good for my studies this week. I've looked at a couple of rjm's Shusaku lectures and I got in about 2 hours of study yesterday in Tesuji, which means I did dozens of go problems and read 2 chapters. (Okay, how many cookies do you want?)

At tonight's club someone new is supposed to attend. They are around my level, possibly better than me. Apparently they are an out-of-practice 1 kyu who needs 1 more stone than I do against another guy at our club. So I have been training to beat them. I wanted to focus on fundamentals so I re-read Chapter 2 on capturing cutting stones. (You re-read a chapter? That hardly counts. Read a new chapter! :mad:) I also read the chapter on attacking tesuji because that is an area I know I'm weak. (Okay...)

I had another revelation during my study of the Davies book - this time about reading. (About reading, eh? :study:) It was a sudden rush of information and was surprisingly complete. I'm actually going to work on some sort of essay that goes over all the thoughts I had, but basically the idea is that reading in go is very similar to reading a book. I'll also talk about how it is easy to be lazy and not want to read, but why you should do it anyway beyond just a desire to win. (You're going to try to get these nice folks to read some boring thing you wrote about reading? :-|) One of the quotes I like from it so far is this: "If go is like a sport, then I want to be an athlete... But reading is for eggheads, right? So why would I read if I want to be an athlete?"

I plan to get in some KGS games on Thursday as I'll be busy during the day today and tomorrow - perhaps I'll get in one KGS game on either day. I will also make sure I fully review one of my losses on Thursday and post it for review here as well. (But what if you don't lose?! :o - Just kidding, you'll have plenty of losses to look at. :tmbup:) So with all of that I am on track to keep up with my study regiment.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #104 Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:11 am 
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That sounds like you are making really good progress, keep up the good work! :tmbup: I'm looking forward to reading your essay, so don't listen to your inner critic and post it here. It sounds really interesting that you are writing something about it and as you are around my level, it might be helpful for others to read it. And be sure to report on how you fared against the newcomers, I'm curious to read about that.
I also hope that we might play a game or two in the near future, too, before you run too far ahead of me. :)

But before that I'll have to figure out if I want to be an egghead or an athlete. Hm.... :-?

:D

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #105 Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:49 pm 
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So the new guy was a no-show, but I had a come-from-behind victory against the second strongest player at our club when giving him 5 stones so that was good. (You and your come-from-behind victories... that just means you made a big mistake and your opponent countered by making a bigger one. This is not a good thing to share with people. :roll:) The issue was a reading mistake early on where I thought my opponent would play one response and didn't consider that he might do something else. I actually talk about that concept in my essay using the analogy of putting words in someone else's mouth. I was basically saying "my opponent said this" before he even spoke and was planning my game around that, but then he said something else and I found my metaphorical foot lodged firmly in my metaphorical mouth.

The thing that ended up saving me, however, was my counting. (I thought it was your opponent making several mistakes...) By end-game I had come back and I stopped to count the score - by my estimate I was up by 12 points. After playing the end-game somewhat conservatively and winning the last true ko of the game (which was worth about 8 points) I had won by - exactly 12 points. White 28, Black 16 - no komi. By playing the end-game conservatively I avoided trying an unneeded invasion that could easily have cost me the game. So it looks like my counting has improved over these last few weeks. (Try 6 weeks. You posted about counting in early November. ;-))

Thanks for the encouragement, Ember. I agree, we should get in a game. You can let me know when you're available. We are 6-7 hours different in time I believe, so if you'd prefer we can do correspondence on OGS or a Malkovich game here. That being said, I have worked around my sleep schedule to get in games and I am on break from classes. (I look forward to seeing you beat him. :salute:)

I plan to finish up the essay before going to bed or I'll have it posted tomorrow.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #106 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:19 am 
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So this essay came out as a bit more of a brain vomit than a cohesive piece, but I think it gets across the thoughts I had when reading Tesuji on Monday. (Takes time to write 3-page essay about sudden revelation; does not take time to edit said essay. Interesting to see where and when you decide to be lazy. :roll:) My signature can apply to this and this can be treated like a game to be reviewed. Feel free to criticize this and to outright disagree with me. (Yeah! Now that's more like it! :tmbup:) As long as the comments are constructive I will not be offended. (Aw, they have to be constructive? :cry:)

The Essay:
How Reading and Reading are Similar

Introduction
I had a revelation that reading in go and reading books is much more similar than I originally thought. I didn't really see much of a connection between the two terms - reading was just what it was called when you imagined moves. No questions asked.

Now, I’m the type of person who enjoys a good novel. I’ve read some classics, some modern classics, and some things that might be regarded as trash by those with more sophisticated tastes. And I also have aspirations to someday be an author myself – though that dream may seem farfetched.

The challenges involved in becoming a published author are similar to those involved in becoming a top go player. Hard work and dedication - along with some natural talent - is all required and the approval of others is needed to truly find success. Good go is not played in a vacuum. Yet I find myself procrastinating on writing a novel and procrastinating when it comes to learning how to read well in go. Why, though? Why should I have a hard time with either of these things?

Mostly boredom, to be honest. Even so, I don't think reading in go should be seen as a boring chore. I had a bad idea about it and I hope to correct my thinking for the future.

Go as a Sport
I’ve heard of a debate between Korean and Japanese players about whether go is a sport or an art. In Korea they seem to treat it as a sport – it is all about being the best. In Japan, however, it is more like an art. Maybe it is some of both - yet I've also heard that it cannot be both.

If go is like a sport, then I want to be an athlete. I want to go out and train and play hard and win games and get stronger so I can beat better opponents and win more games. If I play enough then the stings of mistakes will heal over like muscle tissue – stronger than ever – and I will go on to victory.

Reading is for eggheads, right? So why would I read if I want to be an athlete? Some could argue that reading in go is basically the equivalent of playing on the field or, at the very least, that it is like a coach going through his play book. If you want to win you need to have a good playbook and you need to know it. You need to be able to execute the plays.

I’ve never found that argument very compelling. “You should read more because if you don’t you will lose.” The problem is, I’ve won games on very little reading. If I was comfortable with my current rank, or being a few ranks lower, I would skip this part because it seems the most boring. Whenever any athlete talks about going over a playbook before the game they are never excited. It is a chore. It is what they do because their coach says so. And who wants to do that? Scoring points is more fun than making sure you know how your coach wants you to play. So you messed up the play? Big deal, your team still won. And that attitude can get you places to a point – especially if you are comfortable never reaching the top.

Go as Mental Competition
There are also those who say go is like a mental arena. That reading is the real battle going on between the minds. That the game is so much deeper than the moves played because each move is a counter to a move that could be played 2 or 5 or 50 moves from now.

Go is sometimes referred to as “hand talk” – the idea being that with every move you play you are telling your opponent something. They can respond with the next move. And the game, as a whole, is a conversation. This would make go almost like a debate – another form of mental battle that can be more about what your opponent could say than what they actually do say – preventing them from making a strong argument by discrediting it before they do.

Perhaps with each stone you read you are having a hypothetical discussion with your opponent. You are trying to predict their responses. That would mean that when you say “my opponent will play here” you are basically putting words in the other player’s mouth and that is never good. So often I find myself doing this. “My opponent must play here! There is no other option!” And then I don’t read for other options, plan for my opponent saying this, and then I am left looking like a fool as my opponent says something completely different.

But we don’t play go for the sake of debate. Maybe in a grudge match between clubs or when sparing to try to prove who is the stronger we play go for the sake of debate. Usually, however, we play the game of go as a game – we play for entertainment.
The problem is, reading does not have immediate feedback. Playing without reading is like shooting the breeze with a friend. You may not say anything constructive, but it is a lot more fun than having a serious debate.

It seems like the boredom of reading should keep it forever out of our games. After all, we aren’t pro. We aren’t doing this for a living. We are doing this to have fun, so excuse me if I want to have fun playing a game!

Go as Entertainment
And that is where we come back to this idea – reading in go is like reading a book.

Most people don’t like reading until they do it. It is like this thing you know you should do, that some part of you wants to do, but that you don’t do most of the time. It take a rare person to be a truly regular reader. Yet for almost everyone, once you actually sit down and open up the book, you enjoy it immensely and wonder why it has been so long since you last read.
And reading in go can be the same way. It can be just as surprisingly fun as reading a book.

With each path you read you are coming up with a story. Each stone placed is a word or phrase and together they tell about an outcome in the game. It really is like reading a novel. The story is fake – it never actually happened. But if you’ve ever enjoyed reading a novel or playing the “what-if” game then why should it be so hard to find the same fun in reading out plays?

I definitely think this can be the case in the opening. Do I play a conventional 4-4 or a surprising 6-4? You have that option and the story of that game will branch from your choice. Do you approach the 4-4 or the 3-4? Do you build a framework or prevent your opponent from making a framework? Any of these could make a great story and it can be fun to play a game by yourself in your mind’s eye – I play a 3-3, my opponent plays a 3-4. Which way is the 3-4 facing? It is in the opposite corner, so it doesn’t really matter. I play a 3-4 facing my own 3-3. They play another 3-4 preparing to enclose the first and get a nice framework. What do I do? I approach right away low. Then they approach me high. If you play enough go you can envision this all easily. You can see the board right now in front of you. That game could exist – but it doesn’t. It is all in your imagination. All I’ve done is told you a story.

Go as Writing
And so when we read in go we can tell different stories to ourselves. Yet there comes that moment in every reader’s life when they take a new step. A big step. Putting pen to paper or fingers to keys to do an important extension of reading. The thing that makes reading possible in the first place – they go to write.

When we are better versed in reading books we can write better stories. Authors have given this advice for years – “What should you do if you want to be a good author? Read a lot of books.” And that is our game experience. As we play and review games we are reading books – go books that show us new possibilities.

Authors go through drafts – maybe five drafts, maybe five dozen drafts – before they release their final product. And each game we play is a collaborative novel. A first draft is okay – that would be a game without reading. I play the first idea I have. And someone experienced enough might make a good first draft with few errors. The more experience they have, the better their first draft will be. Yet if we want to write a masterpiece we need to be comfortable with the fact that it is going to take more than one draft.

And all of those novels I read before that. The classics, the modern classics, and even the trash. And my own writing – the novels I gave up on writing because they weren’t going anywhere, and the essays I turned in at school. They all come into play again. Not always tangibly, but they are all there helping me to write a better story.

Closing Thoughts
In my next game I will try to go about playing with a smile on my face. When I think “what if my opponent played here” I will read farther ahead, thinking about what story those moves tell. Is it one my opponent would want to share with me – a story that we can both agree is worth telling? I won’t know until I write down my move. Once written it will be a part of history – of a story being told right now about stones and influence and a desire to win.

So I'll try to come up with the best story I can. When reading, I'll imagine the truly best move for my opponent – imagine that their argument will be flawless – and then feel some sadness for them if they fall short. The book I'm writing with each game is collaborative. The greatest go games in history were not the one-sided slaughters of innocent kyus. They were the matches between top dans. Games where neither player neither player backed down until it was truly over.

I am neither a top dan nor a best-selling author, and I don't have more than daydreams about becoming either. That being said, reading is important to both. And maybe if I read more - read more in go and read more books - then just maybe...


(I figured I could do you guys a favor by giving you all a summary. Frankly, this thing is too long for anyone to want to read...

TL;DR - Playing a good game of go is like trying to write a good novel - the experiences had when reading are important in both. Reading in go is like coming up with drafts of your work for a story. And reading in go can be fun because each sequence you read is like telling a story about how the game could have gone.

There were also other analogies about sports and debating and it ended with something sappy about how maybe someday moyoaji could be good at go. I'm 99% "someday" is in a distant future when human brains are merged with supercomputers. :ugeek:
)

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #107 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:20 am 
Oza

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I'm really not sure that I couldn't replace reading (as in books) with almost any human activity there. The analogy doesn't really work for me, reading is too passive a process (not to say that it's passive but the idea of a true dialogue between writer and reader is a bit strained).

I agree with you about reading (as in moves) but would liken it more to the enjoyment found in trying to solve a difficult problem/puzzle/question. The MCM competition in mathematical modelling springs to mind as something that felt somewhat similar. Each to their own of course.

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #108 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Thanks for the comments, Boidhre. I can see where you are coming from. Much of the idea for this came from a combination of reading Lessons and Tesuji. In both of those books the authors seem to speak directly to the reader. (They are books trying to teach you stuff, so no duh. Kindergarten activity books do the same thing...) I can agree that reading in games can be a lot like doing problems or puzzles. After all, tsumego books are basically puzzle books. That being said, I feel the process in a game is a bit more creative. Puzzles are more static - they always have the same solution - but a go game against someone new, or even old, is dynamic. It is less like solving a puzzle and more like drawing a free-form picture - it will create something unique. (Okay, puzzle books and drawings. Do you want some crayons for those? ;-))

Now, take a look at this picture I drew earlier today:


I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)

Pro game featuring a similar sequence:
Chinese Women's League Game - I got the moves a bit wrong, I wasn't supposed to jump. (You can't even copy moves right! :lol:)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31 Tao Ran 1p (B) vs. Chen Yiming 2p (W)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 2 O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

:w28: is a good example of what I was talking about in my essay. I could have played almost any approach against the two black corners. None of them seems innately bad, so it is just a choice. I could have also split black at K3 or enclosed my own corner. Any of these is valid. I chose to try to build the right along with my own hoshi stone instead of splitting black. The game would have been totally different, but that was not the story I wanted to tell. I wanted to play a game that was calm with an edge. A game where I would wait for my opponent to make a mistake. And that is what happened. (As with all of your wins...)

:w30: was another move I liked. I decided my first approach could be pretty light since my goal was more to build the side than take the corner. Although it could have ended in gote, I also liked :w36: to get me a larger corner and plenty of the left.

:w44: was an experiment that I didn't care for much once I played it, but it absolutely defined the game. The game became about 2 groups. The one I made at :w44: and the one black made by capping me.

:b83: seemed like an impossible mistake. It was exactly what I wanted black to do - my thought was, if he invades now I can destroy him in the center, or later I get a big corner. Why would black give me thickness and influence when his group is not safe in the center? All I can think is that greed got the better of him. (Yeah, because you've never been greedy in go...)

:b93: was unexpected. A good read on black's part to win my little white wall of stones - although I could have saved them in gote. However, I think it was too small compared to my attack in the center. Especially after I got a wall facing the outside. I think my opponent just didn't see how much trouble his group was in. (Maybe it's because sometimes you are absolutely brilliant and no one else sees it? :shock: - Anyone here buy that one? :D)

Move 125 was one I was dreading black would make, but it was pretty much the only move he had and I don't see where I could have prevented it.

Move 154 I thank The Second Book of Go for. It was what I learned about capturing races from Richard Bozulich that made me know I could win.

I couldn't give a full list of all the moves that came directly and indirectly from other sources. I can say "thank you" to almost anyone here for this game. So if you are reading this, thank you for the help you've given me. The dedication page of this book has many names.

So I got in one game today. Tomorrow I will play more games - come up with more stories. Thanks for reading this one. (Cheesy ending and more book analogies. To throw in a musical simile, you sound like a broken record. Although perhaps "corrupted mp3 file" might be more relevant for today's youth... :scratch:)

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #109 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:53 am 
Oza

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Can :b15: be at B15? I'm unsure and curious.

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #110 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:31 am 
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In my game black probably could go back and fix. The reason another push from behind would be sente is that I could double hane. Since I decided to jump it is less of a problem for black to ignore me. (And that is why the monkey is a better player than moyoaji - when he copies a pro he actually uses the right move.)

Here's a dwryin lecture where he talks about the joseki: His video on Rare Plays

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #111 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:37 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
Can :b15: be at B15? I'm unsure and curious.



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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Boidhre
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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #112 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:39 am 
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moyoaji wrote:
I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)


I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #113 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:22 am 
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Thanks Bill. I think you have demonstrated perfectly why my jump is not played and why the push is infinitely better. (Like always, the pro and the monkey are stronger than the moyoaji... ;-)) To be fair, though, I would never tenuki from those moves. I know how precarious this corner joseki can be.

skydyr wrote:
I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.

Which push? The :b11: response? The :b13: response?

I don't see how black could fix at :b11:. What is to stop white from playing a hane immediately? The cut at 'a' is double atari. You can't exactly give your opponent a ponnuki in the center or let him take the centerpiece of your wall right out from under you. The cut at 'b' still doesn't work during any of this. Yeah, I suppose black gets to have influence facing the left like he wanted, but at what cost? (At the cost of giving his opponent influence toward the top and territory in the corner. I thought that was obvious.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Looks great for white
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b O O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X 2 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X . a 3 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


On DailyJoseki there are only 2 moves for :b11: - the push and cutting directly. The push was played 98.5% of the time. (The direct cut leads to the more traditional large avalanche.) After :w12: push the :b13: push was played 95% of the time. And finally after another push black responded again 92.3% of the time. Black doesn't seem to have time to fix the cut unless he is okay with white playing a double hane. (Double hane this and double hane that. You sound like a corrupted mp3 file. :roll:)

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #114 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:11 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
skydyr wrote:
I was under the impression that the joseki move was to fix the cut rather than keep pushing. Sometimes this is done directly, and sometimes very loosely with an extension.

Which push? The :b11: response? The :b13: response?

I don't see how black could fix at :b11:. What is to stop white from playing a hane immediately? The cut at 'a' is double atari. You can't exactly give your opponent a ponnuki in the center or let him take the centerpiece of your wall right out from under you. The cut at 'b' still doesn't work during any of this. Yeah, I suppose black gets to have influence facing the left like he wanted, but at what cost? (At the cost of giving his opponent influence toward the top and territory in the corner. I thought that was obvious.)


I meant pushing once at 11 and then protecting, but I realize I didn't pay close attention and was thinking if white had connected the cut instead of descending.

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Post #115 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:15 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
Thanks Bill. I think you have demonstrated perfectly why my jump is not played and why the push is infinitely better. (Like always, the pro and the monkey are stronger than the moyoaji... ;-)) To be fair, though, I would never tenuki from those moves. I know how precarious this corner joseki can be.


You won't tenuki but you lose the clamp, black gets thickness and sente vs the in-game result. Which was what I was curious about, I didn't think the jump needed to be responded to and leave the big weakness on the side for black. It's interesting that even with the jump answered white still in in trouble.

Thank you, interesting to think about. :)

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #116 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:08 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
I want to thank Hailthorn for :w10:! After he played the avalanche against me I made sure to do some studying on it. This move and the resulting clamping sequence is apparently a big reason the avalanche is rarely played today at the professional level. (So you can copy moves from pro games. You have all the go playing skills of a trained monkey... :ugeek:)


This comment confused me, so I had to go look it up. Over the last year when the avalanche is started, the common continuation extending up the side is played 29 times and the descent is 5. It seems to be more common pro play to extend towards a large avalanche opening rather than the descent. A lot will depend on surrounding circumstances of course...

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #117 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:23 pm 
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oren wrote:
This comment confused me, so I had to go look it up. Over the last year when the avalanche is started, the common continuation extending up the side is played 29 times and the descent is 5. It seems to be more common pro play to extend towards a large avalanche opening rather than the descent. A lot will depend on surrounding circumstances of course...

I'm sure the ability to play the descent effectively directly impacts this. For example, if black had a star-point stone on the left the decent and clamp wouldn't work well because the group on the side would have a poor base. So a pro wouldn't offer the avalanche unless they knew this variation would work poorly for the one on the inside. On top of that, this variation allows white to more or less be sealed in the corner in exchange for black's wall not being effective. If white needs to build the top the avalanche is a more effective means of doing that. (Again, trying to understand professional play at your level? For all you know their joseki choice has more to do with the effectiveness of tengen than the right side. :ugeek:)

What I wonder is: How often is the avalanche offered compared to just backing off with the hane? I see that common joseki in 40-50% of pro games. Whereas I haven't seen an avalanche game since that pro game position I showed.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #118 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:47 pm 
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I was doing some research and came across this one which made me laugh. I wanted to know what pros played with few moves on the board, but I wasn't expecting this.


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Post #119 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:35 pm 
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So I got in 2 losses today. (As expected. :salute:) Both by 20+ point margins.

The first one was really hard for me to deal with. I lost because of one move - a failure in a life and death that I knew the answer to but played the wrong move because of a bad read. I even was going to play the right move first, but then changed my mind. (Well, it's not the first time you derped hard in go.) Move 191 should connect the two groups to create a seki.


The second game came down to me making an overly heavy group and trying too hard to save it. I should have been more comfortable with letting my opponent have his framework on the left for longer in the game and not reduced it right away. If there was anything I missed in the insane fighting that ensued do let me know. (I'm sure you missed plenty.)


I need to learn from these mistakes. I'll take time to review these games more fully tomorrow. For now, I'm going to play a game with a friend of mine.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: To 5 kyu in 5 months! (We'll see about that)
Post #120 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Edit: sorry, wrong one posted first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B This?
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . O . O O O X . |
$$ . O O . X X X . |
$$ . . . X X . O . |
$$ . . O X . 3 O . |
$$ . . O O X . X . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ . . O O . X O . |
$$ . . . . O O 2 . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]


I couldn't find a good :w2: here.


Last edited by Boidhre on Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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