Working through the kyus! (Easier said than done)

moyoaji · **#121**

Boidhre wrote:

On the first one:

This?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B This? $$ ----------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . O . O O O X b | $$ . O O . X X X . | $$ . . . X X a O 1 | $$ . . O X . O O . | $$ . . O O X 2 X X | $$ . . . . 3 X O . | $$ . . O O . X O . | $$ . . . . O O . . | $$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]

a and b miai for life? Or am I missing something?

Atari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Atari $$ ----------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . O . O O O X b | $$ . O O . X X X . | $$ . . . X X a O 1 | $$ . . O X . O O 4 | $$ . . O O X 2 X X | $$ . . . . 3 X O C | $$ . . O O . X O . | $$ . . . . O O . . | $$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]

Bill Spight · **#122**

Some comments on the opening.

Boidhre · **#123**

moyoaji wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

On the first one:

This?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B This? $$ ----------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . O . O O O X b | $$ . O O . X X X . | $$ . . . X X a O 1 | $$ . . O X . O O . | $$ . . O O X 2 X X | $$ . . . . 3 X O . | $$ . . O O . X O . | $$ . . . . O O . . | $$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]

a and b miai for life? Or am I missing something?

Atari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Atari $$ ----------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . O . O O O X b | $$ . O O . X X X . | $$ . . . X X a O 1 | $$ . . O X . O O 4 | $$ . . O O X 2 X X | $$ . . . . 3 X O C | $$ . . O O . X O . | $$ . . . . O O . . | $$ . . . . , O . . |[/go]

Yup, sorry, had to edit, put up the wrong bloody variation!

Edit: Sorry, submitted edit after your post and didn't notice due to be a tired idiot.

moyoaji · **#124**

Boidhre wrote:

Yup, sorry, had to edit, put up the wrong bloody variation!

Edit: Sorry, submitted edit after your post and didn't notice due to be a tired idiot.

Yeah, your other variation was better. (It's alright, Boidhre. I trust you when you say you were just tired. The reason I don't trust moyo is that he always claims he was just tired. And he's always an idiot. )

So I got right back on the horse and played another game. I was worried about another loss, but instead I got a hard fought win. In my mind that is the best kind of win, and it got me back to 3k. My opponent and I reviewed afterwards and we saw some places where we both misread. The biggest misread was that white should play atari at G8 on move 182 to net my stones and win the game. (And another free win to get you back to 3k... will you ever win a legitimate game where your opponent doesn't blunder his way to a victory for you? )

With a couple more wins at 3k I can make it official. Maybe I won't get it by the end of December? That would throw off my schedule of getting 1 dan, but I suppose I can't rush my way through ranks. I need to take things 1 day and 1 game at a time regardless of what my rank says. (That's good advice for a number of reasons. For one thing, your rank will never say anything that great about your playing ability. Because it will never be above the kyu student levels. )

Shenoute · **#125**

Hi,

Just a couple of thoughts (which could be totally wrong of course) :
:b29:

why not Q7 (I know this is not always the best move but I think Kageyama is adamant B should not cut himself in two)?
:b43:

seems to lose sente for nothing
:b59:

isn't atari from the other side more interesting ?
:b75:

I would get out instead of making eyes locally.

PS. I like your inner-voice commentary

moyoaji · **#126**

Shenoute wrote:

why not Q7 (I know this is not always the best move but I think Kageyama is adamant B should not cut himself in two)?

My word. This position is virtually identical to page 48, Dia. 21. And your move is correct. "When white plays 1 we try to maintain the continuity with the contact play at 2. This is naturally a good move. What can those who fail to play it be thinking?" (Dang son, calling the man out using the advice of his favorite go author? That cuts deep - like, mega-deep. This guy adores that Kageyama guy and his little book. Did you see his signature? Although, his signature does directly request such comments. They should call you "The Waiter," because you served this guy exactly what he asked for. I like you!)

And here I thought I did a good job defending my corner while attacking. And Kageyama knows this - "Perhaps they covet the upper side as territory... To make matters worse, they think they are doing well because they are attacking White." Thankfully, I will not be so foolish as to demand that my way was right or okay. I will not forget this. Forgetting fundamentals like this is why I want to re-read the book. (He's a bad student. He'll forget your advice and Kageyama's in the next week and do it again. You'll need to be patient with the poor guy.)

Shenoute wrote:

seems to lose sente for nothing

Yep, I thought I was in danger of losing an important stone, but that stone wasn't cutting anything and it wasn't giving much central influence anyway. I played that move in 6 seconds, so I should have taken more time to evaluate its importance before saving the stone. (Didn't you just give this advice in a teaching game 2 weeks ago? I think I remember you doing a KGS Teaching Ladder game with a 20k or something and you told them to evaluate the value of stones before working to save them. What's that word we use for people that don't take their own advice? Oh right, a hypocrite. )

Shenoute wrote:

isn't atari from the other side more interesting ?

Wow. Totally missed that. I didn't read out all the possibilities in the 9 seconds I thought about that move. I thought I couldn't cut white off, but I clearly could have. If white saved his stone the other way I can cut through the resultant net shape and capture 4 stones, saving my group and winning me a big corner. Since white can't save his 1 stone I get stronger and prepare to attack from a position of strength that is all but out in the center already. (His name should be moyo-"auto-atari"-aji-"remover" and I'm glad you're doing this because he thought he was getting better at reading after that win a couple nights ago. )

Shenoute wrote:

I would get out instead of making eyes locally.

It's a habit of mine. Whenever I see the chance to settle a group locally I prefer it over running. In this case I did debate about running, but decided I preferred life in the hopes of attacking the two white groups on either side. However, both groups were already out so it was less useful than I'd hoped. (It's great to have someone call him out on the important but obvious mistakes he makes. He thinks he's getting better but he still makes the same classic mistakes he did when he started this journal months ago.)

Shenoute wrote:

PS. I like your inner-voice commentary

(Like I said, you're alright. )

Shenoute · **#127**

Glad I could help. Of course these are just my take on things and it may need correction. Here are some second thoughts and an inner voice comentary

and taking the corner lets W cut at G3 which may be too easy for him (but still I think that not having a floating group while taking 10 points in the corner is worth it for b especially since he keeps sente if w cuts).
:b77:

l6 might be better (but getting out could be dangerous since there isn't much room in the center).

I was looking back at the opening and thought about :w22:

, it seems to spoil black Chinese opening a bit. I'm not up-to-date on opening theory but I remember reading/being told that when playing the Chinese the two extensions around K4 and K16 were kind of miai. So I wonder if black may have used :b9:

to play K4. But maybe this is too gentle on w lonely stone...

Ember · **#128**

moyoaji wrote:

Thanks for the encouragement, Ember. I agree, we should get in a game. You can let me know when you're available. We are 6-7 hours different in time I believe, so if you'd prefer we can do correspondence on OGS or a Malkovich game here. That being said, I have worked around my sleep schedule to get in games and I am on break from classes. (I look forward to seeing you beat him. )

I'm so sorry I wasn't able to answer until now but this week was another really busy one, this time even with night shifts to meet a deadline..

I don't think that getting in a game at the weekend should be a problem. For me, it would be absolutely fine to start a game at 10pm my time, which should be about... 2pm your time? The next few weekends might be tricky, though. :scratch:

But since I'm on vacation right now playing a game until the 30th at most of the evenings until then would be ok. Maybe we can arrange something in advance? Or you can hit me on OGS, I'm online quite often. Or you can send me a pm here, of course.

Anyways, congrats for making it to 3k!! Although your rank might not be really stable right now, it takes some strength to reach every next level. So, no matter what your inner critic says, its congrats indeed!

moyoaji · **#129**

Got in another win against Fuego today. (Good for you. That's old news. It's Christmas Eve. Let these people get back to their families and get back to yours. I should be taking the day off... ) This is actually the first time I've played the AI since my win in November. I didn't feel up to getting in a KGS game, but I'm not going to be going to my go club today - since it's Christmas Eve - so I figured I should play something.

As usual Fuego let me live everywhere and tried to win the center. I was able to get a group out there and had it live with a couple of eyes. At move 136 I was a bit concerned about how I was going to reduce the center. When I went for the capturing race toward the end move 214 was also disconcerting. That move was my last hope to seriously reduce white. With how calmly Fuego was handling my interior moves I thought I may have made a serious miscalculation, but I kept going. By 219 I thought I had the capturing race already won, but in case I was wrong I figured I should reduce white some before I lost all chances. By 243 I knew I had him.

It was a close game until Fuego let me win the capturing race. I saw that I could have started something for a while, but I didn't want to try it for no reason. Fuego should not have ignored me. (No duh...)

This is likely all the go I will do for the next couple of days. I probably won't be on the forums much until the 26th, so have a good Christmas Eve and a merry Christmas! (And happy New Year and all that jazz. )

moyoaji · **#130**

I'm back in school again for my final semester and I've been focusing on my classes rather than go. (Seems reasonable, to be honest. But then why are you bothering to post here? Shouldn't you be working on assignments? ) I have a long weekend with Martin Luther King Day tomorrow, so I decided I would take the chance to post here and study some go again.

I took a look at a Tan Xiao game yesterday - http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/40065. It was an interesting game as Zhong Wenjing treated his :w8:

stone lightly in the beginning to make black's opening over-concentrated. I feel like :b31:

was a bit too agressive. I was afraid of playing the hane there when I was reviewing the game and when I saw black play it I was surprised - the cut by white did not surprise me. (Thinking you know better than a pro? Seriously?)

On Friday my university's club had an event where we distributed flyers to students on campus. We got some good interest including a Russian international student who is good a chess, but wants to learn how to play go. She actually managed to beat our best chess player in a 5 minute blitz game. (Great, another chess player with half-hearted go interest. You need more of those. ) I hope she begins attending our meetings regularly. She didn't even want to play chess in the first place, it was only when she mentioned she had 15 years of chess experience that one of our players begged her for a game. (I see. This is interesting. )

I did use some Christmas money to order Attack and Defense and The Chinese Opening from Kisedo. The books are expected to arrive next week. I really have been wanting to read more about attacking in go because I know that is currently one of my weaknesses. (More reading for you in the midst of your college education. Is that really wise?)

And that is pretty much everything I've done with go in the last month. Other than a game I'm playing with skydyr on OGS I haven't been doing much with go as of late. I will put some effort into the forums when possible, but I expect to be much quieter over the next few months. (Good. We've been waiting for you to be quiet for a while now. Salut, mon ami! )

moyoaji · **#131**

Got in a KGS game after all today. It was a close match considering it was a free match with someone who simply said they would accept any challenger. I was going to do a ranked match, but automatch was taking a while so I just grabbed the match with this player. (Maybe if you didn't try to get in a game at 2 in the morning there would be more people on... ) When I started I figured I wouldn't even post it. However, since the game was actually close I figured it would be good.

I did 2 things differently this match than usual:

1. Because I've been wanting to learn more about 3-4 joseki I decided to play two 3-4 stones. Sadly, every single corner got settled in some other fashion so that idea was useless. (Not your first useless idea and definitely not your last.)
2. After I saw my 3-4s were going nowhere, I decided I wanted to build insanely big and dare my opponent to invade and reduce me. I'm usually on the receiving end of this treatment, so it was nice to be the guy with a giant moyo for a change. (And did your framework have weaknesses in it? Like, say, aji? )

The game started out with a lot of aggression and weak groups. In the end, I managed to win in yose by 8.5 - I forgot to remove the 3 black stones in the center. (I'm going to say it was still only a half point win. Because that is what the record shows. )

Up to :w22:

I felt like the game was going really well. I was concerned my opponent might be much weaker than me. I was feeling great by :w40:

now that I had surrounded one of his groups and claimed a good corner for myself. Black's reply at :b53:

was what made me go crazy. I decided to extend up to the 6th line and try to lay claim to 10th line territory on the left with an unorthodox enclosure. After black's initial invasion I played out to :w72:

daring black to come in. He did and managed to reduce me somewhat. However, soon I realized that black was getting way too much in the lower right. I had a lot of difficulty choosing between an invasion and a reduction, so I did a bit of both. At 134 I realize I should have played N7 directly to get in a solid reduction and potentially even cut off black's top group depending on what I got. After living in the corner I went after black's group on the top, but it was able to survive with 2 points. Nothing died this game, which surprised me. I was able to make something of my invasion on the right by living in the corner and played a solid end-game for an 8.5 point win.

This technically makes for my first KGS game of 2014. I'm glad I could start off with a win, even if it was a free game against a guest opponent. (I don't know if I should be glad you're focusing enough on class that you haven't played a game in so long or mad at you that you have been neglecting your KGS playing... )

LarryHH · **#132**

moyoaji, although I haven't viewed your posted games, your advancement is impressive. Reading Go books and studying problems is a good method to get stronger. However, playing weaker players is not a way to get stronger unless you have the proper handicap. I am skeptical of the on-line rating system where you advance on the basis of one game. Typically, a four game set is needed. win three out of four games and you adjust the handicap by one stone. This is equivalent to either a promotion or a demotion. Such a rapid promotion speaks of your dedication and intelligence.

My heuristic for a 5 kyu player is being able to readout bulky five in the corners, i.e., living or killing, the plan to squeeze him from the outside into bulky five and then kill him.

Has your rank improved at the go club relative to other ranked players? Can you beat an amateur Shodan taking a five stone handicap??? That would be confirmation of rank.

RBerenguel · **#133**

LarryHH wrote:

moyoaji, although I haven't viewed your posted games, your advancement is impressive. Reading Go books and studying problems is a good method to get stronger. However, playing weaker players is not a way to get stronger unless you have the proper handicap. I am skeptical of the on-line rating system where you advance on the basis of one game. Typically, a four game set is needed. win three out of four games and you adjust the handicap by one stone. This is equivalent to either a promotion or a demotion. Such a rapid promotion speaks of your dedication and intelligence.

My heuristic for a 5 kyu player is being able to readout bulky five in the corners, i.e., living or killing, the plan to squeeze him from the outside into bulky five and then kill him.

Has your rank improved at the go club relative to other ranked players? Can you beat an amateur Shodan taking a five stone handicap??? That would be confirmation of rank.

It depends on whether his club rankings are AGA/EGF based or KGS based. I don't remember how big the AGA-KGS rankings shift is, but at 4-5k KGS beating a EGF shodan with 4/5 stones wouldn't be easy (since it is equivalent to around 7-10k EGF, depending on country)

moyoaji · **#134**

LarryHH wrote:

moyoaji, although I haven't viewed your posted games, your advancement is impressive. Reading Go books and studying problems is a good method to get stronger. However, playing weaker players is not a way to get stronger unless you have the proper handicap. I am skeptical of the on-line rating system where you advance on the basis of one game. Typically, a four game set is needed. win three out of four games and you adjust the handicap by one stone. This is equivalent to either a promotion or a demotion. Such a rapid promotion speaks of your dedication and intelligence.

My heuristic for a 5 kyu player is being able to readout bulky five in the corners, i.e., living or killing, the plan to squeeze him from the outside into bulky five and then kill him.

Has your rank improved at the go club relative to other ranked players? Can you beat an amateur Shodan taking a five stone handicap??? That would be confirmation of rank.

Well, I could answer that if I attended clubs with ranked players. Sadly, West Michigan is not a hub of go playing talent. The go clubs I attend do not have AGA ranked players that attend regularly. That being said, I can evidently beat an AGA 5k, so I would assume I am at least 5k.

The only ranked player I have played many times is an AGA 5k, who I have beaten in even games multiple times. Several months ago I bested him in a best of 3 series and then went on to win a few more games against him. I also was able to best his son, an out of practice AGA 2k, in a single game over the Christmas holiday, however, I don't call myself a 1k because that was just that, a single game.

I don't really have the option of viewing my rank from the perspective of the AGA or EGF. Such players just don't exist in my area and West Michigan is lucky to host one tournament a year.

As for playing weaker players, I have risen to be the strongest regularly attending player at both of my clubs. Due to my progress, I don't have the option of playing against stronger players in person. The best players I get a chance to play are the ones I play online. At the West Michigan Go Club I give a 5 stone handicap to the next strongest player. We adjust the handicaps only when it is clearly demonstrated a new one is needed. At the Grand Valley Go and Chess Club the next strongest player needs a 3 stone handicap against me, but he prefers to play even games and lose.

LarryHH · **#135**

moyoaji, give the 2 kyu player an incentive to play more. Two stone handicap. Practice building and reducing moyos. Run groups into the center for marvelous middle game fighting. Yes, winning a single game doesn't mean you are one rank stronger than that player. Kyu players make lots of mistakes.

moyoaji · **#136**

LarryHH wrote:

moyoaji, give the 2 kyu player an incentive to play more. Two stone handicap. Practice building and reducing moyos. Run groups into the center for marvelous middle game fighting. Yes, winning a single game doesn't mean you are one rank stronger than that player. Kyu players make lots of mistakes.

The only reason I was able to play him was because he was in town for the Christmas holiday. He doesn't live in West Michigan. (Ever think of playing him online then? )

However, there is another 2 kyu player who I got to play at the club last night. I ended up losing by 7.5, but had I played one move differently in the end-game I would have won. (Don't use this "one move away" excuse, a loss is a loss is a loss. ) He should be able to come semi-regularly, so hopefully I'll get to play him more. For now we don't plan on adding a handicap. Who knows? Maybe I'm 4k on the KGS, but I'd be 2k under the AGA? I seem to be able to hold my own against those players.

I know that AGA and EGF rating are seen as more official than online ranks, but I personally don't have a problem with defining my rank by the KGS. Not only is it more convenient than driving hundreds of miles to go to tournaments, but it also can be more up-to-date. Not just because tournaments are rare in my area. The last and only tournament I played in was almost a year ago now - the Two Cities United Tournament in Kalamazoo, MI. I was around 9k strength at the time, which seemed to be confirmed by my games that day. So I should have an AGA rating of about -9, but they still have not entered my rating. I just checked their website now. Not sure what is taking the AGA so long there... (8 months? I would have written them 8 angry letters by this point. You're letting them off too easily. )

---

Back to my studies. Two new books arrived in the mail yesterday, about a week sooner than expected. (At least Kiseido knows how to do stuff on time. Maybe they should invent their own rating system and keep track of that stuff. Oh, wait... ) I skimmed the first few chapters of The Chinese Opening. The Low Chinese has been my go-to opening for about 2 years now. The book didn't seem to have anything I wasn't already familiar with from my own playing and studies in the early chapters, but I look forward to doing the problems later in the book. I hope this book can cement my mastery of the Low Chinese opening and also show me how the High Chinese works differently so I can pull that out from time to time. (Mastery?! This guy thinks he can master an opening? Quit the go, moyo. Stand up comedy is your calling.)

Attack and Defense is a book I have big hopes for. It is the last book in the Elementary Go Series that I wanted to buy. I feel I've been able to learn a lot about the opening, joseki, and yose from watching lectures on YouTube and my own studies. Combined with The Second Book of Go, The Direction of Play, and Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, I felt like these concepts have been hammered home pretty well. Tesuji, life and death, and attack and defense are all concepts that I've had difficulty getting a grasp on from online study. I know I'm weak in the area of attacking right now, so with this book I hope to finally gain a solid understanding of this important mid-game strategy. I can imagine myself gaining a couple of stones from it. (This guy apparently thinks Davies and Ishida are miracle workers. Or that go books are infused with magic pixie dust. )

Classes don't allow me a ton of time, but I do hope I'll make the time for the books and some more KGS games. (Why? So you can "master" things? )

moyoaji · **#137**

Got in a ranked game today and won by 14.5. (I see. Well, play some more. It's harder to mock your wins. )

I made some mistakes in yose because I was in byo-yomi, and my opponent made some big mistakes that lead to an unneeded ko fight that he ended up losing. (Of course your opponent made mistakes. You are both kyus. You both make lots of mistakes.)

I've never encountered an opening like black played in this game. His style was sort of refreshing in that he didn't seem to be motivated as much by greed or a desire to fight as most KGS users tend to be. Yet, somehow, his style in playing was not like my own. That's rare, and so I actually enjoyed the game a lot. I was clearly losing up until the end because I let my bottom right group die. Move 148 was totally unneeded as the cut against my 2 stones didn't even work. A ladder would kill the cutting stone. (Failed to read a simple ladder? Kageyama must be so ashamed of his star pupil. )

The first chapter of a Attack and Defense was very nice. It gave me some good general things to look for when considering a whole-board position entering the mid-game. The Chinese Opening has also been good. I knew most of the information in the first chapter, but I still read it. Then I actually skipped ahead a bit and read the chapter on Magic Sword variations. That was an unexpected, but definitely welcome, addition to the book. The information was basic, but given how lost I usually feel when dealing with Magic Sword stuff even this small amount increased my confidence. (Great, so now you think you are a master of Magic Sword variations, I assume? What's next? You read a motivational poster and believe that you really can achieve all your dreams? )

So my studies are starting to go along again. I'm glad I was able to get in a nice win against a 4k. I still need to work on a lot, but that will all come with time. (Yep, I was right. You read one of those posters and now you think that, given enough time, you can be a go master. )

skydyr · **#138**

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 217 and the sequence following are the losing moves for black. Honestly, his style struck me as slightly passive. Black spent a lot of time defending his own area and kind of let white's potential just develop on it's own, but perhaps this came from a good sense of the count.

Regarding attack and defense and the magic sword, I don't recall anything about it in that book?

moyoaji · **#139**

skydyr wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 217 and the sequence following are the losing moves for black. Honestly, his style struck me as slightly passive. Black spent a lot of time defending his own area and kind of let white's potential just develop on it's own, but perhaps this came from a good sense of the count.

Regarding attack and defense and the magic sword, I don't recall anything about it in that book?

I agree. Black made a number of mistakes in trying to defend his group. I do think that the sequence from 217 on was game losing. As I said, "my opponent made some big mistakes that lead to an unneeded ko fight" (As always moyo needs his opponents to make a horrible mistake in order to win.).

The Magic Sword section is in The Chinese Opening by Kato Masao, not Attack and Defense. I think you may have missed the part of the paragraph where I started talking about that book.

skydyr · **#140**

moyoaji wrote:

skydyr wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 217 and the sequence following are the losing moves for black. Honestly, his style struck me as slightly passive. Black spent a lot of time defending his own area and kind of let white's potential just develop on it's own, but perhaps this came from a good sense of the count.

Regarding attack and defense and the magic sword, I don't recall anything about it in that book?

I agree. Black made a number of mistakes in trying to defend his group. I do think that the sequence from 217 on was game losing. As I said, "my opponent made some big mistakes that lead to an unneeded ko fight" (As always moyo needs his opponents to make a horrible mistake in order to win.).

The Magic Sword section is in The Chinese Opening by Kato Masao, not Attack and Defense. I think you may have missed the part of the paragraph where I started talking about that book.

Oh come on, you don't expect me to read every word you write now, do you?

How do you like that book, incidentally (the chinese opening)? Do you find it useful? How up to date is it?

Working through the kyus! (Easier said than done)

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