I have to agree with this. Black's group is more than strong enough already, and it's way too early to play moves that are purely focused on points.

In my review with Vladimir, I also felt this move was too slow. However, looking at it again, it sort of makes sense when you consider the possibility of an early 3-3 invasion.

From the position black obviously wants to make his corner big, and he has the potential to do so, but playing too far away from the corner just begs white to invade on the 3-3 (even this early). This could happen very soon after.

The largest side on the board is the right. So, traditional play dictates that the next move should be there. Let's say black approaches the 3-4 instead on move 11 and a joseki plays out, but white ends with sente so he can invade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$m11 Possible variation from approaching the top left corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black blocks so the wall is facing the right, his two stones are way too close and wasting the potential of the post-invasion wall (which is required for the sequence to be joseki. Black must block the other way. However, if black blocks so the wall is facing the top then after this kind of sequence white can approach the wall, giving white an ideal extension from his corner group and a good move to reduce black's potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$m27 A Great Wall?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . 4 . . . 3 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the way black would have to block, but what are all his stones doing? Enclosing that small area in the center? His corner is ruined and white isn't looking that sad on the top. The marked black stone looks especially sad now when it was once proudly attacking the white group on the right it instead feels unneeded.

The move may seem slow, but if it preserves that giant corner (and threatens to make it even bigger) black shouldn't be too upset.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

I think that analysis supports my own conclusion that actually black's one space jump is the bad move, and for the same reasons.

I don't think that makes the knight's move good though, because it still leaves a lot of aji if not outright life in the corner - this shape has even appeared in several pro games, and white actually does 3-3 successfully several times even after the knight's move. Black could play closer to the corner, but then that's becoming increasingly inefficient.

Honestly, I think that perhaps black should have approached R10 from the bottom if he were going to approach at all. Black is trying to make a strong moyo/proto-territory on the top right, but the bottom is more suited to it because of the existing enclosure.

I agree, as do professional statistics - though approaching R10 from above has at least happened a very small number of times. I think the 3-4 in the top left makes it unpopular, black is more interested in that side (and there are many more pro examples) if he can approach (e.g.) a 4-4 there to build towards a large scale moyo.

I think the one space jump afterwards is more clearly bad though. If black tenukis after white's extension then any real badness of shape is above my own pay grade, but the one space jump immediately brings to mind ways I (as white) would like to take advantage of black's potential overconcentration.

This illustrates the danger of learning joseki.

Some thoughts about the 3-3 invasion.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Well, I would argue it's the danger of only knowing one joseki. When it comes strictly to points, the standard 3-3 invasion joseki is the best for minimizing white's points and building a wall. However, you are correct that black doesn't have to play the standard joseki. If sente matters then black could extend like you showed.

Regarding the variation you showed, my question is this: are all of the black moves there sente? Could white ignore blacks' second push, for example, and play a move on the outside right away? Black could reduce white's territory, but is the extension dangerous enough to kill white?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . W . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also, I do not think an invasion in the top right is acceptable until the top left has been dealt with (which is why I showed it after a joseki in the top left). Without support from some kind of white enclosure or group, stones put anywhere near the post-invasion wall will be in deep trouble. Even if the group can make a base, black would be more than happy to attack a little two space extension base from his giant wall and he will get something out of such an attack.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting question about White shifting gears with , treating the invasion as a probe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

leaves a ko in the corner, and the stones are plainly too close.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even if the descent at were a clean kill, this would not be a terrific result for Black. But it is not a clean kill, because White has aji in the corner. For instance, (most likely not played right away) threatens to connect underneath.

Perhaps this means that Black should block at 14 instead of 13, as it takes sente and makes a small gain, pretty much regardless of the left side.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Important lesson learned... never play absolute time games... (I'll give him this one. He had the guy by 70+ and lost because the other guy refused to pass and give him the fair win. ) No matter how many times I passed and got 3 more seconds the guy kept playing moves that made me respond. Eventually, I ran out of time. (To be fair you beat the guy pretty hard. He probably got mad at the fact that you used your time to beat him, so he used your time to beat you... )

At least it was a moral victory for me. A solid win under conditions I typically don't like: limited time. (This guy still doesn't know how life and death works... he needs a good 2 minutes to do a 15k problem...) I made some great moves, including sacing a large group in the corner to get outside influence and then using it to kill everything black had on half the board... (I'll give him that too, it was a nice pseudo-win.)

Here's my most recent loss for those who want to look at it... (Pretty sure he's just posting here for sympathy. On a side note: I'M BATMAN! )

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

W205 at T-03 would prevent seki.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Congrats to Vladimir, but I can't let my newfound rival get ahead of me for too long. (How's the studying going, though? )

I've been keeping up with watching go lectures on YouTube, but I haven't been doing go problems. (He's getting spoon-fed information instead of working through stuff on his own. )I know life and death is one of my weak points in go and I know I'll have to fix that if I want to get above my current rank. (He lost a game today because he couldn't read a basic life and death problem...) So, I have a new book on the way - Life and Death by Ishida and Davies - and I'm going to start looking at more life and death problems online. After I fix this sad aspect of my play, I should be a much stronger player. (As if life and death problems were the reason for all of your recent losses...) I've played some FlyOrDie games just for fun recently and their players are very aggressive, forcing many games to come down to life and death. The games I've lost on there have all been because of a misread in the life or death of a group. (Wait, this is really your key problem? )

As an SDK player, I generally don't like to admit that I'm bad at life and death because it seems so fundamental to go, but my play elsewhere has always made up for it and my opponents never really take advantage of it. (Except the ones that beat you because of it...) Usually I make such large groups that the question of "is it alive" isn't really a factor and the small groups I make in corners are almost always the result of joseki, meaning the life and death of them is either easy or already guaranteed. (So you've been playing "fake it 'til you make it" with your playing ability up to 8k... Not bad. )

Davies' book on Tesuji has been good to me. Let's hope Life and Death will prove to be equally as helpful in improving my skills. (Still want to be spoon-fed success. Can I become the internal critic of someone who is willing to put in work?)


I'm pretty sure black's group is just dead. It has 1 eye and a false eye. All I have to do is fill in the last outside liberty, take the ko, and then I kill the whole group. (If you meant at that moment. Yes, black could have made it seki, but he never did. Instead he later killed his own group...)

EDIT: After a few games today, I barely hit 7k (for a couple hours until it went back to 8k), as with 8k I'm going to win at least a couple of games at that rank before stating it in the main post. Stating it before that would seem premature. I should get in some games tomorrow, so maybe... http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=moyoaji

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

I won another game today, so I'm officially 7k according to the KGS. I'll need to win one more before I make it official here. (He doesn't want to post about it "prematurely" as if anyone is going to care if he falls right back to 8k..)

I played some more games with a friend of mine - who I have successful moved to 3 stones against me - and then decided to read some from "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go." (Oh good, I was worried you forgot your books existed.) I finished up the first chapter and Kageyama went on something of a rant at the end.

Here is what he had to say:

The reason so many people never master this elementary skill [of nets and ladders] is that they keep ignoring it as being beneath them. They are the people who cannot be bothered to 'read'; who try to capture the uncapturable group because it just looks as if it can be done or because they can muddle through somehow, and so they rush headlong into disaster. They are also the people who, when they face a slightly stronger opponent, do not try to capture the capturable group because with their fuzzy reading they are afraid of messing it up; who innocently add unnecessary stones to their own already alive groups; who take fright without cause; who tremble when they sit down at the go board; who play through the whole game with a sullen expression; who lose every fight; who eventually come to hate go. Sorry wretches, through choice they have abandoned the most interesting and enjoyable of all games.

- Kageyama Toshiro 7-dan, Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go

I must never become one of these people. (Well, I think he must have been talking about someone else. ) However, I had to admit that I've had one of these moments recently.

When I was trying to read "The Second Book of Go" I thought "I know all of this stuff already... I can't learn anything from this, so why read it?" (It was dragging on about basic joseki... I had already zoned out before moyo did.) I feel I was getting a lot more out of Fundamentals. (Yeah, because it wasn't written for 20 kyus.) Even so, I'm going to go back to the Second Book of Go. (What?!?! )

Kageyama was a wise man, and I don't want to waste the wisdom he imparted here. If I were to toss aside a beginner's book as being beneath me and just read the rest of Fundamentals I would be missing the point of the whole book. (But it was so boring!) Whether I'm an SDK player, a DDK player, or a dan player, nothing in go is beneath me. I need to constantly have a grasp of the basics if I want to play go at a consistent strength. (Second Book of Go is going to be a looong read. )

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

I skipped through parts of the book before, there will be a lot more of those, the book kinda makes you feel like the author will come to murder you in your sleep if he ever sees one of your games that is played anything but perfect.

I don't mind the rants. For one thing, I know I'm not that good at go. However, I also don't think Kageyama is actually that upset. He is simply trying to get his point across in a memorable way. His exchange with Yamabe Toshiro 9p earlier in the chapter shows something of Kageyama's character. What he says there after explaining how Yamabe disliked his go shows great humility.

Now that I set these words down on paper and reread them, they sound almost insulting, so let me make it clear that for the sake of the art, strong and outspoken language, which makes a deep impression, is most welcome. Even though there may have been an element of insult present, the hearer definitely did not feel insulted. - Lessons, p. 25

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Okay, I'm making my 7 kyuness official. (It took you this long to get in a couple of games?) I won my most recent game because I solved a few life and death problems! (Or because your opponent ignored his biggest weakness for 50 moves... but sure.) So my studies have not been fruitless and now I'm just a tiny bit better at life and death. (Emphasis on "tiny" )

Here is the game:


So far I am making good progress toward 5 kyu. (Yeah, you're actually doing better than I expecting considering how long your go was stagnant before your studies. I'll give you that one. ) It looks like I'll easily make my goal of 5 months and then I can move on to (Please don't say it...) shodan! ( )

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Convincingly won. Nicely done.

Plainly you don't know what I was talking about.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black makes seki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X X . X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O X X . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O X X X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X O O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O O . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . X O . O . O . . . . . . X O O X X O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . O O , . . X O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O O O O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O X O . . . O . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X X O O . O . O X O O |
$$ | . . X . O O X O X X X O . . O O X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . O X O X O O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O . X X X X X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . X X O . X O O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . X X O . X O . O X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc White kills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X X . X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O X X . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O X X X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X O O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O O . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . X O . O . O . . . . . . X O O X X O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . O O , . . X O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O O O O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O X O . . . O . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X X O O . O . O X O O |
$$ | . . X . O O X O X X X O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O X O O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O . X X X X X X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . X X O . X O O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . X X O . X O . O X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yes, that's T-04 instead of T-03. Typo.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I have made it to 6 kyu. (So you're doing about a rank a month... I guess that fits with your goal.)

Ordinarily I would play a few more games, but I have been playing an AGA 5k at my local go club recently and we've been trading games back and forth so I think it's fair to say I'm a 6k even if I've only just gotten the rank on KGS, especially considering the margin of victory in my last game. (That's sort of cheating, but I guess that can slide considering you basically only play at your club. Now, what was that rule about playing multiple games a week on the KGS in order to get stronger... the one in the first post...)

Before I move on from that game, however, I would like to know from someone better at life and death (I'm better than I was, but still not great) if white could have killed my lower left corner with a different move at 110. (Clearly too lazy to read out all the variations...)



One rank away from my goal now... I will make sure I play at least 3 games at 5k and go at least 2-1 before making my 5k rank official and considering this portion of my go studies finished. (And then onto 1 dan, right?) Then, it's on to shodan! ( )

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Good game. 23 is a good pattern to know ("add a stone [to get two liberties] and sacrifice both") but in situations against the edge of the board like this, B will often wait for a bit before removing this aji, because b18 c18 a17, connecting under, is good yose.

In isolation that shape can be killed by White playing at B4. But here Black has threats to escape to the outside (which I think don't work, but it could get messy). If White ever seals off the bottom though, it can be killed cleanly.

See: http://senseis.xmp.net/?J1Group#diag8