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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #241 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:53 pm 
Oza

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oca wrote:
I'm currently reading "Attack and Defense" (but for now "defense" is still to be read...)
and "Attack" is still maturing in my head...

so here is a game I played trying to apply all whose things that are flying in my head
and that was a big crash... so here is the game

I have put a lot of comments in the game till move 74
killing move is black 103 I think.

Any comment welcome !



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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #242 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Hi skydyr, thanks for your comments !just to clarify... 242 is a miss click... At the worse moment :(

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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #243 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:35 am 
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It's difficult to make a comment now without being blunt or without avoiding the real issue. I'll choose the former.

242 is a misread, it's not a misclick. It's not a misread to be ashamed of: it happens to all of us. It's very instructive though. It looks like a local ko-threat but due to the not so plain to see double atari, the ko is resolved next.

Our worst mistakes conceal the major hurdles for our progress. Let's not pretend they were accidental or even unfortunate.
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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #244 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:48 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
It's difficult to make a comment now without being blunt or without avoiding the real issue. I'll choose the former.

242 is a misread, it's not a misclick. It's not a misread to be ashamed of: it happens to all of us. It's very instructive though. It looks like a local ko-threat but due to the not so plain to see double atari, the ko is resolved next.

Our worst mistakes conceal the major hurdles for our progress. Let's not pretend they were accidental or even unfortunate.


Well, the exact term would be a "miss touch"... let me explain... I play on IGS on an ipad. I use the "double touch" (I don't remeber the exact name of the option right now) to play a move.

That means that I can touch once to place a move, and then, I have to touch again to actually play the move... and here I must confess I have a bad habbit, I ofen touch once to visualize better the position, and that's what occured here... except that I unfortunatly touched a second time, and so played that move... but I can grant you that I was just evaluating that position and not really wanted to play there...

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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #245 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:17 am 
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oca wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
It's difficult to make a comment now without being blunt or without avoiding the real issue. I'll choose the former.

242 is a misread, it's not a misclick. It's not a misread to be ashamed of: it happens to all of us. It's very instructive though. It looks like a local ko-threat but due to the not so plain to see double atari, the ko is resolved next.

Our worst mistakes conceal the major hurdles for our progress. Let's not pretend they were accidental or even unfortunate.


Well, the exact term would be a "miss touch"... let me explain... I play on IGS on an ipad. I use the "double touch" (I don't remeber the exact name of the option right now) to play a move.

That means that I can touch once to place a move, and then, I have to touch again to actually play the move... and here I must confess I have a bad habbit, I ofen touch once to visualize better the position, and that's what occured here... except that I unfortunatly touched a second time, and so played that move... but I can grant you that I was just evaluating that position and not really wanted to play there...


I grant you that and you've just found a bad habit for yourself to cure. Good luck with that!

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #246 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:35 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:

I grant you that and you've just found a bad habit for yourself to cure. Good luck with that!


Thank you so much Knotwilg !

I realize now I was falling into trap !
The option on IGS is there to avoid miss touch, and the way I used it provoked the miss touch...

not to say how stupid it is to spent that much time reading book and then relying on that option to better visualize one stone...

I will stop that immediatly, I'm sure that will help me !

Thanks again ! so sad I cannot click the "I like" button more then once....

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #247 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:46 pm 
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I will remember that 222 for a long time... I suppose I would be alive if I played this 222 at J2 instead ;) ...



Any comments welcome !


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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #248 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:54 pm 
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222 is not the problem. W is still alive after it, and there are actually at least 3 points after 222 where w can live.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #249 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:57 pm 
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There were actually many chances to live, for example as late as 236. Can you find it?

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #250 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:16 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
There were actually many chances to live, for example as late as 236. Can you find it?


Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm234
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X X O . O O X |
$$ | . O O . O . . . O X X X X O . O O X X |
$$ | O . O O X O . O . O X O X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O . X X O O O . O X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X O O O O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X . O X . X X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X O O X X . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X X . . . . X X . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . X . . . . . , . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O X X . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X . X X X X O . . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O . X . . X O O O X O |
$$ | . O X . X . X O X X X X X X X . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O O X O O X . . X . X |
$$ | . . O X O . X X O O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O O Y Y Y O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X b O 1 Y O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X a X c O O X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


When I played 234, I was thinking that either black can connect at 'a' (K1), and then G1 and that's over for black,
or he can play at 'b' (G2), like he did, and then I can eat the four :bt: stones and so make two eyes... easy...
but I totally missed the snapback :blackeye: ...

So white 236 should be at 'c', black cannot connect at 'a' thate would be a connect and die. and if he cannot connect, I can eat and make two eyes...

What to learn : The game is not over till the stones are back in there bowls...

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #251 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:52 am 
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oca wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
There were actually many chances to live, for example as late as 236. Can you find it?


Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm234
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X X O . O O X |
$$ | . O O . O . . . O X X X X O . O O X X |
$$ | O . O O X O . O . O X O X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O . X X O O O . O X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X O O O O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X . O X . X X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X O O X X . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X X . . . . X X . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . X . . . . . , . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O X X . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X . X X X X O . . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O . X . . X O O O X O |
$$ | . O X . X . X O X X X X X X X . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O O X O O X . . X . X |
$$ | . . O X O . X X O O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O O Y Y Y O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X b O 1 Y O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X a X c O O X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


When I played 234, I was thinking that either black can connect at 'a' (K1), and then G1 and that's over for black,
or he can play at 'b' (G2), like he did, and then I can eat the four :bt: stones and so make two eyes... easy...
but I totally missed the snapback :blackeye: ...

So white 236 should be at 'c', black cannot connect at 'a' thate would be a connect and die. and if he cannot connect, I can eat and make two eyes...

What to learn : The game is not over till the stones are back in there bowls...

This is an interesting position. The chance at 236 exists only because Black makes a mistake with 235. If Black had played as below, White would be dead as in the game. However, instead of 234...
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm234
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X X O . O O X |
$$ | . O O . O . . . O X X X X O . O O X X |
$$ | O . O O X O . O . O X O X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O . X X O O O . O X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X O O O O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X . O X . X X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X O O X X . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X X . . . . X X . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . X . . . . . , . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O X X . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X . X X X X O . . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O . X . . X O O O X O |
$$ | . O X . X . X O X X X X X X X . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O O X O O X . . X . X |
$$ | . . O X O . X X O O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O O Y Y Y O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O 1 Y O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 X X . X . O O X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White had played 234 at 1 below Black cannot connect at 'a'...
Go Diagram
8 @ 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 8 @ 3
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X X O . O O X |
$$ | . O O . O . . . O X X X X O . O O X X |
$$ | O . O O X O . O . O X O X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O . X X O O O . O X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X O O O O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X . O X . X X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X O O X X . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X X . . . . X X . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . X . . . . . , . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O X X . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X . X X X X O . . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O . X . . X O O O X O |
$$ | . O X . X . X O X X X X X X X . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O O X O O X . . X . X |
$$ | . . O X O . X X O O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O a X O O Y Y Y O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 1 O 5 Y O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 4 3 2 X X 6 X 7 O O X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Of course Black cannot answer 5 at 6 so White lives with 7, but it would have been very gratifying for White to read this far... :rambo:

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #252 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:09 am 
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ez4u wrote:
If White had played 234 at 1 below Black cannot connect at 'a'...
...
Of course Black cannot answer 5 at 6 so White lives with 7, but it would have been very gratifying for White to read this far... :rambo:


:clap: cannot read that far (by far)... but I like that 234 !

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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #253 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:22 pm 
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Dave shows a nice sequence. If you cannot read that far, you can also think of this:

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm234
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X X O . O O X |
$$ | . O O . O . . . O X X X X O . O O X X |
$$ | O . O O X O . O . O X O X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O . X X O O O . O X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X O O O O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X . O X . X X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X O O X X . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X X . . . . X X . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . X . . . . . , . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O X X . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X . X X X X O . . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O . X . . X O O O X O |
$$ | . O X . X . X O X X X X X X X . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O O X O O X . . X . X |
$$ | . . O X O . X X O O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O O Y Y Y O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 2 O 3 Y O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 X X . X 5 O O X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is really the "vital point" in this position.
But indeed, oca, the crucial message is that "it ain't over till it's over".

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #254 Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:59 am 
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Thank you Knotwilg, I like that throw in !

for now I'm really happy as my schedule changed a bit, and I have now the possibility to play go game
one Thursday AND Friday nights, so twice a week :D.

I'm trying to get ride of that bad habbit I have to place stones on igs client 'just to visualize the position',Even if I'm trying hard not to do so, that still occured to me a 3-4 times.. like a reflex (but fortunatly no 'double touch' this time)... That mean this was really time for me to stop that...

So I played two games, one went really fine for me, a bit scary in the mid game, be that ended fine for me.

I lose the second one, by a few points, here is the game, with comments till move 122.


black 85 was a key moment I think.

As always, any comments very welcome !



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Offline EdLee
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Post #255 Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Hi oca,

:w16: did you consider R13 ?

:w18: did you consider K3 direction ?

:w20: K3 direction feels bigger.

:b27: ridiculous.

:w28: find the correct follow-up.

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #256 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:22 am 
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In the game Black pincered White with 23 below. You answered with 24 and commented, "seems funny... but I don't really have a solid plan". When Black played 25, you slid to 26 with the comment, "I feel this stone is the weaker one and so the first I should help". The comments reveal that White is not grasping the overall or the local situation. The overall situation is that White has a position in the upper left that should be developed if possible. Locally, Black has a pincer stone that has no surrounding help. As a result White wants to counter attack the pincer and further develop the top. One of these aims would be nice, managing to do both would be even better. :rambo:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . 1 , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



One typical idea would be to play 2 below, pressing Black down in the corner. White continues lightly with 4 and 6. If Black jumps out to 7, White can cap the pincer stone with 8. If Black switches 7 to 8, White blocks the side with 8 at "a". Black will invade the upper position somehow but White can have fun attacking Whatever stones are played.
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 4 . 6 . . 8 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . 1 , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The actual play at 24 in the game would not have been bad if White had been able to come up with an appropriate plan. When Black played 1 below, White decided that there were already two weak White groups. This was wrong on two counts: the White stones were not yet separated, and they were not weak!. The appropriate answer was the jump to 2 below. Again this is looking toward attacking the pincer stone. It expects something like 3, which is answered with 4. White happily gives up the marked stone in order to close off the top in good shape, ending with Black drawing back at 'a' and White making the hanging connection at 'b'. Next White is going to attack the pincer or further build up the top.

Note that if Black ever plays something like 'c', White can just answer at 'd', starting to close off the corner while preventing Black from settling himself. Black has not made any shape yet, White can slide in from the left and prevent Black from making eyes.

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . a W 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . B , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

This post by ez4u was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, oca
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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re:
Post #257 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:16 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi oca,

:w16: did you consider R13 ?

:w18: did you consider K3 direction ?

:w20: K3 direction feels bigger.

:b27: ridiculous.

:w28: find the correct follow-up.


I don't considered R13, but I like it !
and I agree for the K3 direction...

for " :w28: find the correct follow-up.", maybe white at F5 ?

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Y . . . . Y , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . Y Y . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #258 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:20 am 
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ez4u wrote:
... The comments reveal that White is not grasping the overall or the local situation...


Hi ez4u,

Sure, I was lost ther! thank you very much for your help !

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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: OCA's log
Post #259 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:07 am 
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4 new games for me... 3 went very fine, one of them was a 9 stones handicap against a 4kyu, I'm happy I won that one, because I used to lose all my handicap games...

so 3 victories and... one, hudge crash, in a game that started with a 5-6 move that I failed to handle... to much influence and my invasion died...

here is that "big crash game"
Any comments welcome. I suppose I'm all wrong since 14, and that I choosed the wrong joseki in the bottom/left corner...



Attachments:
GJOELOPLMP.sgf [1.83 KiB]
Downloaded 1355 times

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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #260 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:24 am 
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Hi oca,

:b9: (I know you played :white: -- we can still learn from your opponent's mistakes) Wrong shape -- still weakness at M17.

:b25: - :w26: common bad habit. :black: self-reduced liberties. Fixed weakness for :white: here.

:w30: why did you reject D16 ?

:w32: if :b33: at D16, you get a broken shape. But you were trying to live ?

:w42: See amatterof's thread :)

:b61: very difficult to recover after this death. Actually, I feel learning about the upper left corner is worth this game.
See amatterof's basic dead corner shape. :)
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