Life In 19x19 :: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

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Author:	Celebrir [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:39 am ]
Post subject:	Cele's try to create controlled complexity
One of the big reasons I love Go is its complexity and deepness. However, in my actual games I was sometimes feared to play more complex moves, relied on standard joseki and so on. Besides I have a problem with using my time. I often play a move on instinct and then realise there would have been a better move in the opponents thinking time. Finally the game ends with me only using a half of the time the opponent used. Therefore I picked two goals for me: 1) Get yourself to play the more complex moves, but don't overplay them. Find the correct mix. 2) Using the time more effective. An example from my recent games: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c 1.1 Choosing the correct joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Normally I would have played a or b, but in this situation I thought a high pincer works better with the bottom corner. And yeah, I was pretty happy with the result: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c 1.2 Played joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 7 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 2 O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c 1.3 Continuation after the joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 7 3 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] After B saved his group I had a nice wall and got sente to play at a. The complete game: I'll keep you updated with some of the more intresting stuff that might happen during this training and hope it's also intresting for you! edit 26.7.: I realized that it would be nice to have indexes for my diagrams here to reference them. I'll do it like the following: [Number of the situation].[Number of the diagram within the problem]. So for example 43.2 will be second diagram of the 43rd situation which is post. You're welcome to index your own diagrams this way as well, but only if you want. If I don't mention a number I always refer to the last diagram within the current post.

Author:	Knotwilg [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Very good idea to give yourself a few focus areas. I wrote an article on time management which you may find useful: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofsta ... Management For the first focus area, I'd recommend you simply use your time to explore up to 3 alternatives per move. This will allow you to get away from automatic play and find some new moves, while sticking to basic technique most of the time. Good luck!

Author:	Loons [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I had a thought in a similar vein, I think, while reading Master of Haengma. That while playing I will often look for a move until I see "a move that works" and immediately play that, when really one should find multiple moves that work, complex, subtle or non and make the decision between those paths. With that said black was significantly weaker than you. For one example, black played C7.

Author:	Celebrir [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Knotwilg wrote: Very good idea to give yourself a few focus areas. I wrote an article on time management which you may find useful: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofsta ... Management Good luck! Thanks the article looks great! However, most times I struggle with even getting into overtime (e.g. in the given game we played with 10 minutes + 3x30 secs and I only entered overtime at the end of endgame). Maybe I'll make a goal next time like entering overtime in the midgame to train on using my periods. Loons wrote: I had a thought in a similar vein, I think, while reading Master of Haengma. That while playing I will often look for a move until I see "a move that works" and immediately play that, when really one should find multiple moves that work, complex, subtle or non and make the decision between those paths. For me it is more like sometimes a point on the board "shines" and looks like the have-to/natural-move. Sometimes that is correct but sometimes I realise that there is something more tricky possible than I thought. Loons wrote: With that said black was significantly weaker than you. For one example, black played C7. That is something one should clearly keep in mind: This game was played on Tygem and I registered there as 1k before reading that the ranking is that much of on this server.

Author:	Knotwilg [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Celebrir wrote: Thanks the article looks great! However, most times I struggle with even getting into overtime (e.g. in the given game we played with 10 minutes + 3x30 secs and I only entered overtime at the end of endgame). Maybe I'll make a goal next time like entering overtime in the midgame to train on using my periods. It is much harder to manage a big amount of time for a large number of moves, than a small amount of time for one move. Therefore I recommend to first experiment with something like 1m + 5x30. Once you have trained yourself in using a full overtime period and consuming all but one of them, you can move on to the more comprehensive systems like Canadian overtime or major amounts of main time. You could also actively seek opponents who are willing to play at such a pace. There are a few more tricks to use the time you have: * sit on your hands * shout out the coordinates of three places you could go next * hum the first verse of your favorite song before playing a move Cheers

Author: Celebrir [ Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:51 am ]

Post subject: Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Another intresting situation I got into:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 2.1 Playing against the low chinese $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . 1 . . 3 b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know that :w2:

also can be at a, but this variation was shown to me by a pro and it worked for me quite well until now. B is normally expected to play at b . But :b3:

throw me off. What is the best continuation? My try:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 2.2 Continuation $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 0 2 9 . | $$ . . . . . X X 1 . . | $$ X . . O 8 4 O 3 . . | $$ . . . . 6 5 . . . . | $$ . . . . . 7 . b . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

I neglected to play at a for sente here. I guess that was a big mistake because B later got b and my group was running. Would this have been okay if I had played a? Or would something completly different be correct?

Apart from that I'm working on time control, while playing with 5min+3x30sec. Sadly I already got a loss on time when leading with like 20 points while thinking about a semi-complex endgame without remembering the time (which I normally could do because I was still in main time or at least some more periods)

edit: Can someone tell me why the diagrams are not working? Copied the first from my post above and can't find a mistake

edit2: Found the error: Copying added leading space to every line which should not be there

Author:	Loons [ Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I kind of like O15 ? It tentatively seems okay. O15 R16? Is it slack?

Author:	Celebrir [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I realized that it would be nice to have indexes for my diagrams here to reference them. I'll do it like the following: [Number of the situation].[Number of the diagram within the problem]. So for example 43.2 will be second diagram of the 43rd situation which is post. You're welcome to index your own diagrams this way as well, but only if you want. If I don't mention a number I always refer to the last diagram within the current post. Loons wrote: I kind of like O15 ? It tentatively seems okay. O15 R16? Is it slack? Hmmm.. Is this okay?: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc 2.3 After Loons Continuation $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X X . . . \| $$ X . . O . 6 O 2 . . \| $$ . . . . 1 . 4 3 . . \| $$ . . . . . 7 5 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . a . X . . \|[/go]` This remembers me of the pattern after a in diagram 2.1, which is as far as I know regarded suboptimal because B got a big corner and W's wall looks bad. In addition here B gets sente and could lokally play at a or somewhere else on a big point.

Author:	Loons [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I would have tried playing tougher as white in that sequence, for example, I didn't read that white had to let black capture that stone. A little further investigation: Josekipedia calls black's move a mistake(submissive) and suggests just connecting, which should be our instinct anyway. http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdttkcpgpjpdqe This is the only response seen in my database. Eidogo suggests not playing the attachment against low Chinese.

Author: Loons [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:51 am ]

Post subject: Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Given it may be a mistake, I would like to counter pincer before continuing locally.

With that said :w3:

is also my intuition and I guess something similar could unfold:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X X . . . | $$ X . . O . 4 C 2 . . | $$ . . . . 1 5 6 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

Which seems bad so perhaps black will play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X X 6 . . | $$ X . . O . 5 O 2 . . | $$ . . . . 1 . 4 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

desirable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X X 4 . . | $$ X . . O . . O 2 . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

But white will start speaking insufferably about lightness.

My feeling is that black P17 may be a mistake.

Author: OtakuViking [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:44 am ]

Post subject: Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

How about blocking at 1? Is it possible?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 2.2 How about? 1 $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a X X 6 . . | $$ X . . O b 1 O 2 5 . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 4 . | $$ . . . . . d . 7 8 . | $$ . . . . e . . 9 c . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

If black a, white b, and the two blocks are still miai. If black c, white a. If black d, white e.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 2.2 How about? 2 $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 5 c | $$ . . . . 2 X X 3 6 . | $$ X . . O . 1 O 7 a . | $$ . . . . . . . . b . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

Black cannot play a, white b is sente so black has to come back at c.

Author:	Loons [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Your 1 is the only move that appears in my database, OtakuViking.

Author:	Celebrir [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Some more thoughts on situation 2: During the game I feared the block because I was unable to think all possible variations after the cut: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc 2.4 The cut I feared $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X X . . . \| $$ X . . O c O O 1 . . \| $$ . . . . . b 3 2 . . \| $$ . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . X . . \|[/go]` What I thought was that if W ataris at a, B can cut at c and if W ataris from b, B can go to a and fight. But with enought time to go through it this fight seems to be good for W. Loons wrote: A little further investigation: Josekipedia calls black's move a mistake(submissive) and suggests just connecting, which should be our instinct anyway. http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdttkcpgpjpdqe This is the only response seen in my database. Eidogo suggests not playing the attachment against low Chinese. Sadly eidogo seems a little bit outdated and/or incomplete nowadays which is why I prefer looking at josekipedia. Loons wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X X 4 . . \| $$ X . . O . . O 2 . . \| $$ . . . . 1 . . 3 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . X . . \|[/go]` But white will start speaking insufferably about lightness. I like B here. W's stones might be light but the most of them seem to be to important to be sacrificed and W should have been able to do better. Any comments on whether my variation in the game would have been okay if I played the shape point instead of tennuki? Yesterday I did not make improvement in my target goals, but a lection about the right mindset: In the first game I got a good start but got very sloppy afterwards to finally lose the game: In the second game I did rubbish at the start of the game, but was able to climb back step by step to eventually win: I realized once again that it is important to stay calm and concentrated even if you feel confident in your lead. Sounds easy? Well I already realised that so often already... I hope it finally sticks xD

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Block like OtakuViking was my instinct too, Loons's kosumi looks very slack to me. You want to connect and fill black's liberties so your corner hane has more power. As for Celbrir's worry of the cut, this seems easy: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc No fear: a/b miai. $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ . . . . a X X 6 . . \| $$ X . . O . O O 1 7 . \| $$ . . . . . 4 3 2 b . \| $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . X . . \|[/go]`

Author:	Celebrir [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Uberdude wrote: Block like OtakuViking was my instinct too, Loons's kosumi looks very slack to me. You want to connect and fill black's liberties so your corner hane has more power. As for Celbrir's worry of the cut, this seems easy: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc No fear: a/b miai. $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ . . . . a X X 6 . . \| $$ X . . O . O O 1 7 . \| $$ . . . . . 4 3 2 b . \| $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . X . . \|[/go]` Yeah, apart from directly at b I had the read now. I feel like the right side is more intresting, therefore I would like to take the decision from B.

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Celebrir wrote: I feel like the right side is more intresting, therefore I would like to take the decision from B. Eh? The top side is more interesting because the top left is a white stone so k16 becomes weak, whereas bottom right is black so r11 is not so weak. Also in such a contact fight in black's area getting any stable group is a success, don't be too insistent on where it is. (In fact if we had that result of black defending at b and white getting a I would probably take white even if I had no komi).

Author: Celebrir [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:59 am ]

Post subject: Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Yesterday in my local playgroup I played the following joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 3.1 Continuation after a two-space-high pincer $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . a 4 5 . | $$ . . X . d O 6 X . . | $$ . . . . 2 1 8 7 . . | $$ . . . . b 3 9 0 . . | $$ . . . . . c O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Every move for B seemed natural so far, but I was quite worried about what to do now. I played a which gave me a bad result. Therefore I did some research:

Eidogo lists as beeing tricked
Josekipedia declares this pattern as a best move pattern but ends on this move with the comment "Complicate position" and suggesting three moves as questions: b,c and d

Does anyone know more about this or is :b5:

just unplayable and should be at :w10:

Author:	Uberdude [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
First thing is white should make sure to have the ladder otherwise ď cut is trouble. If you change 4 and 6 order you can find many continuations in josekipedia.com.

Author:	Celebrir [ Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Uberdude wrote: First thing is white should make sure to have the ladder otherwise ď cut is trouble. If you change 4 and 6 order you can find many continuations in josekipedia.com. Thanks, I totally missed that change in the move order! With my last games I wasn't very happy: Maybe I should have played at M17 Before I was still happy with the game but from there on it got down the hill... Why exactly did I connect two living groups in exchange for a big wall with :b109:? :w158: :Ouch The second game I won, but I was not really happy with the game because I have the feeling I only won because my opponent made several big mistake during this big fight Two intresting situations from my games from yesterday were I succeeded in reading better than usual: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 4.1 Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O O . . . . . O X . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X . X X O O O X X X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . X . X . a O O X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . . O X O X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O X . . O . X X O O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X O O . . . . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . O O . . O X . . . . . . O X X . . . \| $$ \| . O X O O . . . . , . . . O X O . . . \|[/go] Normally I would have played something like a to try and see what happens, but this time I tried to think a bit deeper. What happened in the actual game was this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 4.2 Black in the game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O O . . 9 . . O X . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X . X X O O O X X X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . X . X 7 5 O O X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . 6 O X O X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O X 3 2 O 8 X X O O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 X O O 1 . . . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . O O . . O X . . . . . . O X X . . . \| $$ \| . O X O O . . . . , . . . O X O . . . \|[/go] While a in 4.1 doesn't get the cut in sente but this does or if W defends with B can play at and capture the four stones or something else depending on when W realizes what is happening. This is the other situation: W just took the ko at the marked position. a is the biggest ko-threat which would kill another group. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc 5.1 B to play $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O . . $$ \| . . . . . . X X O . O . O . $$ \| . . . . . . X O X O O . O X $$ \| . . . . . X O O X X X O X X $$ \| . . O O X X O . X , X O X O $$ \| . . . . X W . O X X O O O O. $$ \| . . X . X X O O O X X X O . $$ \| . . . O O O X O X . X X O . $$ \| . . O . . X X O O X X O X X $$ \| . . . . X . . X X O O O O X $$ \| . . . O X . X . . X . . a O $$ \| . . . . O X X . . X . O . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O $$ -----------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc 5.2 Double trouble $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O . . $$ \| . . . . . . X X O . O . O . $$ \| . . . . . . X O X O O . O X $$ \| . . . . . X O O X X X O X X $$ \| . . O O X X O a X , X O X O $$ \| . . d . X W c O X X O O O O. $$ \| . . X . X X O O O X X X O . $$ \| . . . O O O X O X b X X O . $$ \| . . O . . X X O O X X O X X $$ \| . . . . X . . X X O O O O X $$ \| . . . O X . X . . X . . a O $$ \| . . . . O X X . . X . O . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O $$ -----------------------------[/go] The fun point is that W has to control the ko at b as well before he can atari at a. Since W needs both kos but B only the one at c, B can play elsewhere as long as he controls one of the both kos. In the game I played at d It is really fun to win fights with such things if they just happen but it is even more fun to see them in advance and lead your opponent in this direction

Author:	Celebrir [ Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Currently I'm experimenting a little bit with the mokuhazushi corners. While I did the following showed up: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc 6.1 Mokuhazushi joseki choice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X O . X O . . . a . 3 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X O . O . . . . . 4 2 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . \| $$ \| . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I hoped W would play at a to allow me to extend at b. What happened in the game: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc 6.2 The game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X O . X O . . . 6 1 O O . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X O . O . . . . 2 X X 0 7 9 . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X 8 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , 3 . . \| $$ \| . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I don't like this very much. Is there a better way to play after ? Should I have played at a to fight? But then W at b seems just painful... What I'm thinking about now: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 6.3 Mokuhazushi joseki choice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X O . X O . . . . 1 . O . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X O . O . . . . . 3 2 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 6 . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This seems a little bit better because W doesn't get a big wall but on the other hand B still has a big wall facing towards a strong W group. Should I instead have started this fight: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 6.4 Mokuhazushi joseki choice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X O . X O . . 8 . X . O . . . \| $$ \| . . X , X O . O . . . . . 9 O , 2 5 . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . 0 . 1 . 4 3 X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This looks a bit dangerous but now W is getting overconcentrated? Any other variations you think of as good?

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