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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #81 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:26 am 
Honinbo

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Laerthd wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Take a look at the final diagram. :)


I am looking but can't see anything wrong
edit: Or do you mean I won only by 0.5 because of R13?


Well, I didn't actually count. One look and I could see that a protective play was missing. It should have been played before counting.

Years ago I considered writing an endgame book aimed at players at your level. In preparation I took a look at a lot of those games. I realized that the best advice I could give is this:

Always fill the dame.

The players overlooked protective plays right and left. Most were not as obvious as this one, but they are frequently overlooked at your level. Filling the dame would have helped the players to score their games correctly, and it would also have opened up possibilities for big swings.

This also happens with stronger players, although not as often. Erik van der Werf found that about 2% of 5 kyu games were misscored. When I was around that level I found that often I got results different from the official scores of pro games when I tried to score the final diagrams. It was a challenge for me to find the necessary protective plays. If you want to improve your reading, always fill the dame. :)

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Everything with love. Stay safe.


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Post #82 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:43 am 
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Hi Laerthd,
Quote:
I must confess that I played it because it looked like a cool move higher level player would make.
A quick search for this local shape in a pro game database:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . O X X O . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The most popular move is the block-attach :b1:, at 794 cases, 84%.
The rarest move (not shown) is very exceptional, only 1 instance.

The :black: push at R16: zero cases, 0%.

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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #83 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:58 am 
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I was bothered by the game of post 65. Ed already pointed several mistakes but black having so many point in the left side was not discussed.

I looked back at the game and I think my mistake was on move 44 with respect to this side. Here is how I think I should have played


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Post #84 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:13 am 
Judan

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If you want to invade the left side c8 is a standard place. c10 is a move weaker players seem to like a lot and is usually bad so I've pretty much removed it from my repertoire (perhaps there are rare occurences it is a good move when I dismiss it; note I consider a symmetrical position like from san ren sei different to this where they have a 3 space 4th to 3rd line extension with approached corner beyond, there attach makes more sense). Also in your first variation black d11 is weak: he should save the important cutting stone (probably b9). And then a9 is wrong and the 2nd variation is bonkers (both players make huge mistakes). Your later long variations also have many mistakes: I suggest you read/investigate with greater breadth and less depth (it's better to have a sequence of 5 sensible moves than 20 silly ones).

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Post #85 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:45 am 
Honinbo

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Let me highlight one thing that Uberdude said.

Uberdude wrote:
I suggest you read/investigate with greater breadth and less depth (it's better to have a sequence of 5 sensible moves than 20 silly ones).


Hear, hear! :)

As Uberdude also said, C-08 is standard for an invasion. However, Black can reply at D-08 and let White live or connect in gote in exchange for a wall. Then Black's floating stones on the 8th rank in the center would not only have become difficult to attack, they might help Black to build a framework in the center.

That indicates that an invasion would be premature. Now is the time to make use of the White thickness in the bottom right and attack the floating Black stones. H-08 looks like a good spot. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Post #86 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:18 am 
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Hi Uberdude,
I thought of C10 because since black is already strong it made sense to attach to him and see what can happen. But now that you pointed out C8 I see that black maybe isn't that strong yet so a farther approach is better. Anyway, thanks for the comments, I'll look more seriously in this variation.

Bill,
I don't remember exactly but I think this was my idea to attack these stones but as I said, I don't think I can kill them. Or is the idea to attack from H8, gain strength and then attack the left side?

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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #87 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:29 am 
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Laerthd wrote:
Bill,
I don't remember exactly but I think this was my idea to attack these stones but as I said, I don't think I can kill them. Or is the idea to attack from H8, gain strength and then attack the left side?


The main idea — by which I mean my main idea ;) — is to try to keep Black's center stones from becoming an asset, or much of one. Attacking them is unlikely to produce any territory directly, to speak of, or even much strength. But they are Black's only weakness at this point, and if they simply became a strength, the game would very likely be over. An immediate invasion of the left side, with the likely result that White lives in gote in exchange for a wall, would allow Black to use that wall and his center stones to form a framework, and White could kiss this game goodbye.

After :b43: a quick survey reveals that if everything that even looks something like territory becomes territory, then Black is around 20 points ahead on the board. At this point in the game, around 12-13 points would be more like it, to give even chances of winning. And that means that White is running about 7-8 points behind. My guess is that Black has maybe a 55% chance of winning. Things may be a bit worse for White, given how thin the top side framework is.

One general plan would be for White to develop and strengthen the top side. But then Black would develop the left side, with help from his center stones, and White would be playing perpetual catch-up, I think. OC, I could be wrong, but as a practical matter, I think that White has to invade the left side. And he has to prepare the way first, by attacking Black's center stones. :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #88 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Hi Bill,
Quote:
try to keep Black's center stones from becoming an asset

I think this is something I struggle to keep in mind when I play. I almost always think of a move because it gives me something but almost always miss the moves that prevent my opponent to get something big. In the yose for instance, I'll look for my sente moves but when they are finished I never look for the move to prevent a sente move from my opponent. I'll try to keep it in mind.

In the meantime, I've searched for information about invasions and I've find this post from Uberdude that link to his lecture on the san ren sei where there is an example on how to live under the enemy stones (althought the situation is different).

For the game of today, I lost against a 12k+. What worries me is that I didn't see that I could kill the group on the lower right even after the end of the game. I only noticed it because I wanted to know the score at some point and the score estimator marked it dead. I still don't understand how I didn't even think about cutting this group. Apart from that I let one group die but it was already too late to win.



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Post #89 Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:11 pm 
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I've played a game against a 5k IGS, lost it but it was closer than expected.
Here it is with my review.
Overall I think we both played really badly so I am happy for the score but not for the game.


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Post #90 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Game of the day, once again with a 5k+.
Lost by 6.5. Mainly because on the error in the beginning of the game I think.


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Post #91 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Hi Laerthd,

G085-oegf:

:b23: :scratch:

:w46: C7.

:w48: C7.

:b57: var: W would not A1, W would connect A5, B dead.

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Post #92 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:45 am 
Gosei
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Hi,

- At 73 you say "not sure if this is good or not". What do you think about 75? And what does that say about 73?

- How do you evaluate the upper left corner?

- Overall, this game gives an impression of having been hastily played. I would suggest you make an effort to play very seriously, think a few moves ahead before making an important decision, evaluate the relative strength and relative importance of groups ... The randomness should go out of your game. Once you play consistently at your alleged 5k level, you will be able to improve in a focused manner. In fact, if you play consistently serious games, your rank will already improve by itself. It doesn't mean you have to play longer games, just be more focused on basic 1-2-3 sequences and evaluating stones;

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Post #93 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:35 am 
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Hi Ed,

:b23: yeah not a good move. Don't know why I didn't notice anything in the review.

I knew the corner did not go well but I can be happy that it did not go worse.


Knotwilg,

- I actually don't know how to evaluate 73 and 75. He got to reinforce his group but I still have a foot in his territory. I would say that as long as I use these stones as a threat for moves played in the upper part it is ok. What I should not do is run with them.

- The upper left? In the final result I took a useless loss here because of D13. But except for this, I was satisfied with the result. If you mean is it alive at move 97, I think it is.

-
Knotwilg wrote:
Overall, this game gives an impression of having been hastily played.

Well it actually wasn't :oops:
By 1-2-3 sequence, you mean read 3 moves every time?

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Post #94 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:41 am 
Gosei
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Hi,

Sorry if my reply was too candid, but I can only judge from the moves. You are 6k but some of your moves are 25k, which means that some of them are 1d - that's the good part :). So how do you get to play consistently closer to 1d level? I thought you needed to bring your play at the level of your understanding. Now I understand that your understanding needs to improve in this aspect, because you don't see 73 and 75 as bad moves in the analysis stage.

Why are 73 and 75 "beginner moves", lacking basic understanding?

Because the Black group at the bottom is dead (and you know it!). The surrounding White stones have lots of liberties so they are not under any kind of pressure. They can remove the dead group at will or may not even have to. This means your lone stone, from which you play a diagonal move at 73, is a worthless stone. It is not a cutting stone anymore, even if it looks as one. Visualize the bottom group removed. Would you still defend your stone?

Sure, 73 requires an answer from White, so it is not THAT wasted. But 75 adds a third stone to the waste group and does not require an answer. It's a pass move. Which is why I call it 25k level: it's as if you don't know what's going on here.

In some cases it is ok to add more stones to a dead or wasted group, if it forces the opponent to capture and invest even more stones in the capturing process, now or later. This is called "aji". Not in this case though: the opponent will likely live with the surrounding stones without having to capture the group. This makes your other stones "not aji" but wasted.

To know that the black group is dead, is about 6k level knowledge. To defend a useless stone is a 25k mistake.

If you can keep this concept from this game, you'll improve.

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Post #95 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Hi Knotwilg,
Knotwilg wrote:
Sorry if my reply was too candid, but I can only judge from the moves

It wasn't and even if it was I'll take any criticism possible whatever the form :)

I am actually 12k on IGS but after a winning streak I got bored with the leveling up and tried a 5k account where I am getting destroyed. So I guess it makes sense that you see a rushed 6k game. Thanks for explaining, your point might seem obvious but I did not know it :)

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Post #96 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:53 am 
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Game of the day, against a 11k, komi is 0.5

Overall I was happy with the game but did not know how to approach the top left corner and the right side (but hey, that is only 2/9 of a goban :D ). My opponent was driving a lot during yose, I should maybe look a bit more into it. Also, I let one of my group get killed by mistake but in the end I am not sure I was that worse off.
As always, comments welcome :)



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Post #97 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:53 am 
Lives in gote

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Laerthd wrote:
Overall I was happy with the game but did not know how to approach the top left corner and the right side (but hey, that is only 2/9 of a goban :D ). My opponent was driving a lot during yose, I should maybe look a bit more into it. Also, I let one of my group get killed by mistake but in the end I am not sure I was that worse off.
As always, comments welcome :)


Here are some comments on the early part of the game. I thought you played well! And a number of the moves where you were skeptical of the logic seemed reasonable to me.



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Post #98 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:28 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Laerthd,

:b17: Notice that W has weak spots at C5 and C3.

:b19: Could become heavy; could lead to messy fights.
Just o3 or o4 is OK.

:b25: C16.

:b23: You got a bad result here not because of :b23: ,
but because of the follow-ups :b25:, :b27: .
Important to distinguish the OK moves ( :b23: )
from the not-OK moves ( :b25: , :b27: ).
Common mistake/misconception to blame the wrong moves.
( "Not sure about this invasion ( :b23: ), got a bad result." )

:w28: F17 or C18.

:b31: B18. ( W A17 gote. )

( :b33: , :b35: ) Due to :b31: .

:w36: Due to :w28: .

:b37: Maybe o3, C3 bigger.

:b45: , :b47: o3, C3, big.

:b49: J13.

:b63: Bad. Give up the 3 useless stones.

:w64: , :w66: W ataris twice, o16 and N16,
then turns and pushs through at N17:
W has miai of M18 and P16.

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Post #99 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Hi BlindGroup,
Thanks for the comments. I think you are right about F17 at move 11. It is weird how simple things like counting the number of lines are not obvious when I play.

Ed,
So for you I should use :b17: to invade the corner? Isn't that a bit early?
Thanks for the other comments as well.

It is weird because I feel that often I am in a bad position because I care too much too late about my stones and never care about them before. Like :b49: where I let my stones be separated but then try to save the 3 stones.

As for my progress, I hit 11kuy on IGS today. I wanted to be 11kuy before august so right on time.
I did not review the game yet but I won by 0.5 so it is a must. I'll edit this post with the review.

Edit: here is the commented game. I think I nearly lost because I did not make use of my influence at the bottom. I should think more often to shoulder hit.


In the meantime, a much stronger player looked at my games and told me that I basically don't know any fundamentals. He said it with more tact but this was the idea. So I am a bit lost. I thought I made some errors but I had the basics figured out more or less. I guess you cannot expect a game to be interesting for thousand of years without having the longest tutorial ever.


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Post #100 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:27 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Laerthd, You're welcome.
Quote:
So for you I should use :b17: to invade the corner?
I never said any such thing. :)

If you already knew about the weak spots C3 and C5, then the comment didn't give you any new info.
Did you? If not, then there's new info in the comment. ( Re: your reviewer's comment about your basics. )
The operative word is "notice".

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