This is what ELF thinks:
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| New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15768 |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
EDIT: This is not joseki, but a move for special cases and depends heavily on the whole board position I discovered this joseki today while reviewing with ELF. The joseki up to move 5 is very rare in my pro database and move 6 is the new joseki move. This looks rather interesting in my opinion. What do you think? For the joseki up to move 5 see also: Lee Sedol 9p - Park Junghwan 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5) Korean Hwaseong Go Festival special game, 2017-11-09 Ishida Yoshio 9p - Ishida Akira 9p, B+4.5 (Komi 5.5) 36th Japanese NHK Cup, round 2, 1988-08-28 |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 2:39 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF | ||
This is what ELF thinks:
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 2:47 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF | ||
I like that white stops following blacks plan here and even reaches out for sente:
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 2:50 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF | ||
This continuation is even better for white:
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed May 23, 2018 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Gomoto, Lizzie has a pretty board and stones. When the current move marker is  , how to interpret the percentages ?( are they winrates for White, since it's White's turn ? ) Same question for the opposite: When the current move marker is  , how to interpret the percentages ?( Wish there's some way they can improve the UI so the % are obvious which color they represent... -- I still haven't used any of these bots yet.  )
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
This is not your everyday joseki, the new move is only for special cases. I try to investigate the relation to the whole board situation. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
@EdLee The percentages show the winning percentage for the player that is going to make the next move. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
Some interesting evaluations by ELF: Attachment: eval1.jpg [ 163.93 KiB | Viewed 14021 times ] Attachment: eval2.jpg [ 159.68 KiB | Viewed 14020 times ] Attachment: eval3.jpg [ 159.97 KiB | Viewed 14020 times ] |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed May 23, 2018 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Gomoto, Thanks. What are B's and W's winrates before  ? ( 7.5 komi ? 6.5 komi ? Chinese rule ? )Out of curiosity -- for this board: |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 4:18 pm ] | |||
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF | |||
The hane (move 2) is a very random move for ELF. In the second picture beneath ELF misses the hane in this run on the same board configuration. It still thinks it is good if I force it. (It seems to be worth considering it from time to time but the reading is above my head.)
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| Author: | dfan [ Wed May 23, 2018 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
Gomoto wrote: The percentages show the winning percentage for the player that is going to make the next move. By the way, for anyone who doesn't like this system, I added an option in lizzie.properties ("win-rate-always-black") that always displays the win rates from Black's point of view. I prefer this because it's easier for me to see what's going on when the win rates on consecutive moves go something like 42-40-39-38-41 rather than 42-60-39-62-41. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed May 23, 2018 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Gomoto, thanks. I meant in the absolute sense: on an empty board, what are ELF's winrates for B and W ? I seem to recall AZ thought W +50% with 7.5 komi --I'm curious if ELF also uses 7.5 komi with Chinese rules, and whether ELF thinks W is ahead before . Thanks.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed May 23, 2018 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Dan, are you the developer of Lizzie ? |
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| Author: | dfan [ Wed May 23, 2018 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
I am not the main developer, but it's open source, so I have contributed a few features. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed May 23, 2018 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF |
ELF empty board: 49,3% (4-4) 47,8% (3-4) |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed May 23, 2018 11:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Gomoto, Thanks. So ELF thinks W slightly ahead. Dan, Congrats and thanks. |
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