5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Gomoto · #1

The 5-3 move seems to be no longer a valid opening move option according to ELF.
What do you think?

Gomoto · #2

Evaluations by ELF:
(sorry for the colour swap)

Bojanic · #3

Yaaay!
Death to those 20+ moves josekis!

Uberdude · #4

Of course your pesky opponent might not cooperate! e.g. in 3rd var what if block on side (o17) instead of the simple p16 compromise? natural q15 could get complicated.

drmwc · #5

I normally do this - surely it's better than the extension?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My move. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea for W involves a ladder, and looks bad for W when the ladder works for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Ladder. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 7 O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W can compromise, but the promising looking cut at a will get caught in a geta:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Another continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 9 6 . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O X 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · #6

If you're going to claim joseki, I want to see at least 10K rollouts for at least the top three options. Preferably the top five.

And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions.

Edit: And I want to see play on an empty board. I. e., :b1:

is on a 3-5 point.

Gomoto · #7

@drmwc (thanks for your input)
added your first variation, more to come

Attachment:

drmwc1.jpg [ 154.31 KiB | Viewed 14407 times ]

Attachment:

drmwc2.jpg [ 162.5 KiB | Viewed 14407 times ]

further Variation:

Attachment:

drmwc3.jpg [ 159.96 KiB | Viewed 14407 times ]

Gomoto · #8

@Bill

Quote:

And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions.

This is the plan

Gomoto · #9

@drmwc

continuation (only 4 attachments possible in one post)

Attachment:

drmwc4.jpg [ 160.38 KiB | Viewed 14406 times ]

Gomoto · **#10**

@Uberdude

(more to come)

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uber1.jpg [ 154.85 KiB | Viewed 14406 times ]

Attachment:

uber2.jpg [ 162.55 KiB | Viewed 14352 times ]

Bill Spight · **#11**

Please also consider these plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 2 space pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc AlphaGo likes this pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Outer attachment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And these tenukies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki I $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#12**

It's hamete time:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A few moves later Elf thinks its winning with 80% (it only considers pull back for white after cut):

Attachment:

5-3 hamete.PNG [ 226.89 KiB | Viewed 14398 times ]

I play ladder atari and now I'm winning. Haha, tricked you Elf! Too much depth (it gives a 31 move principal variation after cut), not enough breadth of reading.

Attachment:

5-3 ooops ladder.png [ 255.06 KiB | Viewed 14398 times ]

P.S. I'm now letting it think more about if it wants to cut, at 100k stills wants to with 77.9% …

P.P.S I checked with LZ #150, it doesn't want to push out but just capture the stone directly, but if you make it push it doesn't want to cut after white block but just defend again. So we can see LZ better than LeelaElf at ladders again.

Gomoto · **#13**

Updated 5-3 "Joseki" according to ELF:

(Thanks for your input: drmwc, Bill, Uberdude.)

I stay by my word for now. The 5-3 opening move is very questionable today.

Who is afraid of the rusty 5-3?
I play 3-3 and I am not afraid!

Gomoto · **#14**

@Uberdude

I use a different board (Kim Ilwan 9p vs Cho Heyeon 9p, four moves) as starting point and ELF suggests this response.

Attachment:

Uberdudehamete.jpg [ 160.2 KiB | Viewed 14371 times ]

And on your board ELF suggests this move.

Attachment:

Uberdude hamete2.jpg [ 159.5 KiB | Viewed 14368 times ]

Gomoto · **#15**

gowan · **#16**

In mathematics and computer science there is a kind of algorithm called a "greedy" algorithm. It is an algorithm in which each step consists of choosing the best possible option at the time. There are many examples where the greedy algorithm fails to reach the optimal end result. I wonder whether there could be a greedy algorithm problem with the AI go playing programs. Specifically it might happen that choosing less than optimal moves might result in a "better" win due to synergy between less than "locally" optimal moves.

Bill Spight · **#17**

gowan wrote:

In mathematics and computer science there is a kind of algorithm called a "greedy" algorithm. It is an algorithm in which each step consists of choosing the best possible option at the time. There are many examples where the greedy algorithm fails to reach the optimal end result. I wonder whether there could be a greedy algorithm problem with the AI go playing programs. Specifically it might happen that choosing less than optimal moves might result in a "better" win due to synergy between less than "locally" optimal moves.

Using the hill climbing metaphor, you might be climbing a certain hill, but there is another, higher hill that you will never reach, because you would have to go down the hill you are currently climbing. I think perhaps the superiority of the Zero bots, which did not start off copying human play, suggest that humans have been climbing a lesser hill, strategically. The Zero bots found a higher strategic hill to climb. Meanwhile, humans seem to be further up a hill or hills concerned with ladders, semeai, and life and death. Probably also with go infinitesimals, but I can't tell yet.

I think that both the human and AI approaches are capable of finding the highest hill, but doing so could take a long, long time.

ez4u · **#18**

Gomoto wrote:

Updated 5-3 "Joseki" according to ELF:

(Thanks for your input: drmwc, Bill, Uberdude.)

I stay by my word for now. The 5-3 opening move is very questionable today.
...

It always has been.

Uberdude · **#19**

ez4u's post reminds me that there is a wealth of information buried away on this forum, if only you can find it. The search functionality does work reasonably well if some long time member recalls a similar thread years ago so can put in some keywords and the author field, but otherwise it's hard to discover. Some other forums have a "similar threads" type of feature which automatically search old posts and suggest them, I wonder if any such phpBB plugins could give useful suggestions (and not overload the server).

Bill Spight · **#20**

Uberdude wrote:

ez4u's post reminds me that there is a wealth of information buried away on this forum, if only you can find it. The search functionality does work reasonably well if some long time member recalls a similar thread years ago so can put in some keywords and the author field, but otherwise it's hard to discover. Some other forums have a "similar threads" type of feature which automatically search old posts and suggest them, I wonder if any such phpBB plugins could give useful suggestions (and not overload the server).

With the Participate software back in the '80s we had an admin called the Librarian whose job was to connect similar or related threads. The software was quite flexible, so the Librarian often created new structure. It seems to me that our current structure is complicated enough, but we might have some threads closed to discussion that only provide links. Especially in the Study group. Major topics might be Joseki, Tsumego, Reading, and AI. This thread might be linked from both AI and Joseki, and Joseki might have some internal structure, so that this is linked from 5-3 Joseki.

5-3 Joseki according to ELF

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