Life In 19x19 :: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

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5-3 Joseki according to ELF http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15862	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:46 am ]
Post subject:	5-3 Joseki according to ELF
The 5-3 move seems to be no longer a valid opening move option according to ELF. What do you think?

Author:

Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:50 am ]

Post subject:

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Evaluations by ELF:
(sorry for the colour swap)

Attachments:

5-3-joseki-3.jpg [ 160.83 KiB | Viewed 14691 times ]

5-3-joseki-2.jpg [ 159.1 KiB | Viewed 14691 times ]

5-3-joseki-1.jpg [ 160.71 KiB | Viewed 14691 times ]

Author:	Bojanic [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
Yaaay! Death to those 20+ moves josekis!

Author:	Uberdude [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
Of course your pesky opponent might not cooperate! e.g. in 3rd var what if block on side (o17) instead of the simple p16 compromise? natural q15 could get complicated.

Author: drmwc [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:04 am ]

Post subject: Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

I normally do this - surely it's better than the extension?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My move. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea for W involves a ladder, and looks bad for W when the ladder works for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Ladder. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 7 O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W can compromise, but the promising looking cut at a will get caught in a geta:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Another continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 9 6 . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O X 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
If you're going to claim joseki, I want to see at least 10K rollouts for at least the top three options. Preferably the top five. And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions. Edit: And I want to see play on an empty board. I. e., is on a 3-5 point.

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
@drmwc (thanks for your input) added your first variation, more to come Attachment: drmwc1.jpg [ 154.31 KiB \| Viewed 14611 times ] Attachment: drmwc2.jpg [ 162.5 KiB \| Viewed 14611 times ] further Variation: Attachment: drmwc3.jpg [ 159.96 KiB \| Viewed 14611 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
@Bill Quote: And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions. This is the plan

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
@drmwc continuation (only 4 attachments possible in one post) Attachment: drmwc4.jpg [ 160.38 KiB \| Viewed 14610 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
@Uberdude (more to come) Attachment: uber1.jpg [ 154.85 KiB \| Viewed 14610 times ] Attachment: uber2.jpg [ 162.55 KiB \| Viewed 14556 times ]

Author: Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:02 pm ]

Post subject: Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Please also consider these plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 2 space pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc AlphaGo likes this pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Outer attachment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And these tenukies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki I $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Uberdude [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
It's hamete time: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 1 . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] A few moves later Elf thinks its winning with 80% (it only considers pull back for white after cut): Attachment: 5-3 hamete.PNG [ 226.89 KiB \| Viewed 14602 times ] I play ladder atari and now I'm winning. Haha, tricked you Elf! Too much depth (it gives a 31 move principal variation after cut), not enough breadth of reading. Attachment: 5-3 ooops ladder.png [ 255.06 KiB \| Viewed 14602 times ] P.S. I'm now letting it think more about if it wants to cut, at 100k stills wants to with 77.9% … P.P.S I checked with LZ #150, it doesn't want to push out but just capture the stone directly, but if you make it push it doesn't want to cut after white block but just defend again. So we can see LZ better than LeelaElf at ladders again.

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
Updated 5-3 "Joseki" according to ELF: (Thanks for your input: drmwc, Bill, Uberdude.) I stay by my word for now. The 5-3 opening move is very questionable today. Who is afraid of the rusty 5-3? I play 3-3 and I am not afraid!

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
@Uberdude I use a different board (Kim Ilwan 9p vs Cho Heyeon 9p, four moves) as starting point and ELF suggests this response. Attachment: Uberdudehamete.jpg [ 160.2 KiB \| Viewed 14575 times ] And on your board ELF suggests this move. Attachment: Uberdude hamete2.jpg [ 159.5 KiB \| Viewed 14572 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
.

Author:	gowan [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
In mathematics and computer science there is a kind of algorithm called a "greedy" algorithm. It is an algorithm in which each step consists of choosing the best possible option at the time. There are many examples where the greedy algorithm fails to reach the optimal end result. I wonder whether there could be a greedy algorithm problem with the AI go playing programs. Specifically it might happen that choosing less than optimal moves might result in a "better" win due to synergy between less than "locally" optimal moves.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
gowan wrote: In mathematics and computer science there is a kind of algorithm called a "greedy" algorithm. It is an algorithm in which each step consists of choosing the best possible option at the time. There are many examples where the greedy algorithm fails to reach the optimal end result. I wonder whether there could be a greedy algorithm problem with the AI go playing programs. Specifically it might happen that choosing less than optimal moves might result in a "better" win due to synergy between less than "locally" optimal moves. Using the hill climbing metaphor, you might be climbing a certain hill, but there is another, higher hill that you will never reach, because you would have to go down the hill you are currently climbing. I think perhaps the superiority of the Zero bots, which did not start off copying human play, suggest that humans have been climbing a lesser hill, strategically. The Zero bots found a higher strategic hill to climb. Meanwhile, humans seem to be further up a hill or hills concerned with ladders, semeai, and life and death. Probably also with go infinitesimals, but I can't tell yet. I think that both the human and AI approaches are capable of finding the highest hill, but doing so could take a long, long time.

Author:	ez4u [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
Gomoto wrote: Updated 5-3 "Joseki" according to ELF: (Thanks for your input: drmwc, Bill, Uberdude.) I stay by my word for now. The 5-3 opening move is very questionable today. ... It always has been.

Author:	Uberdude [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
ez4u's post reminds me that there is a wealth of information buried away on this forum, if only you can find it. The search functionality does work reasonably well if some long time member recalls a similar thread years ago so can put in some keywords and the author field, but otherwise it's hard to discover. Some other forums have a "similar threads" type of feature which automatically search old posts and suggest them, I wonder if any such phpBB plugins could give useful suggestions (and not overload the server).

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF
Uberdude wrote: ez4u's post reminds me that there is a wealth of information buried away on this forum, if only you can find it. The search functionality does work reasonably well if some long time member recalls a similar thread years ago so can put in some keywords and the author field, but otherwise it's hard to discover. Some other forums have a "similar threads" type of feature which automatically search old posts and suggest them, I wonder if any such phpBB plugins could give useful suggestions (and not overload the server). With the Participate software back in the '80s we had an admin called the Librarian whose job was to connect similar or related threads. The software was quite flexible, so the Librarian often created new structure. It seems to me that our current structure is complicated enough, but we might have some threads closed to discussion that only provide links. Especially in the Study group. Major topics might be Joseki, Tsumego, Reading, and AI. This thread might be linked from both AI and Joseki, and Joseki might have some internal structure, so that this is linked from 5-3 Joseki.

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