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Bad Shape - Good Shape
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Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Bad Shape - Good Shape
I finally realized a misconception of mine:

White to play in these kind of configurations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I liked to play this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . M X . . . . . M X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . M X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But this shape is much better usually:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W O . . . . . W O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Simple once you realize it :blackeye:
Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
But no big deal, pros miss this shape as well:

Attachment:
pro1.jpg
pro1.jpg [ 190.53 KiB | Viewed 9152 times ]


White played like this:

Lian Xiao, 9p - Peng Liyao, 6p, W+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese Agon Cup, round 2, 2018-07-18

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O O X X X . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O . O O . O X O O X . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . . O X X O X . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . O . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . W X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . O O O O X O . . . O O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X X X X . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . , . . O O X X O X . |
$$ | . X X . O X . . . . . . X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Gomoto, Thanks.

:white:'s P11 tiger's mouth was 7%, versus the solid connect P10 was 14% --
either way LZ thought White had little chance to win -- am I reading the numbers correctly ?

Is there a way to ask LZ to show :black:'s follow-ups to :white: P10 vs. :white: P11 to make it more clear (globally) for the 7% difference in :white:'s winrates ?
Author:  Tryss [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
With LZ #153 :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ | . X O . . X O O X X X . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O . O O . O X O O X . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . . O X X O X . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . O . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . , . . . . 3 O 2 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . O O O O X O . . . O O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X X X X . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . , . . O O X X O X . |
$$ | . X X . O X . . . . . . X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


VS

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ | . X O . . X O O X X X . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O . O O . O X O O X . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . . O X X O X . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . O . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . , . . . . 1 O 2 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . O O O O X O . . . O O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X X X X . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . , . . O O X X O X . |
$$ | . X X . O X . . . . . . X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, LZ don't like the P11-Q13 exchange
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Tryss, Thanks.

It could be very helpful to see examples where the tiger's mouth is a losing move ( causing the winrate to drop significantly from above 50% for the solic connect to below 50% for the tiger's mouth ), and vice versa ( where the solid connect is a losing move compared to the tiger's mouth ).

Also, cases where it doesn't matter so much -- winrates about the same for both shapes. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
What about this shape?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . O W . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
Bill, in cases where your shape works it is the even better shape (pro games in my database 2152 vs 1107, only 307 pro games with the tigermouth).

As always one has to read the variations. I had a blindspot for the solid shape up until now, I am happy to add it to my candidate moves.
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
Ed Lee, I think the shape concept is only a help to find good candidate moves. It always depends on the exact game position and careful reading. I use Kombilo to look for the shapes in my pro database. The tigermouth appears quite seldom. I think I was often a little bit to quick selecting the tiger mouth in my games in this kind of positions without exploring the alternatives.
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad Shape - Good Shape
When considering these shapes, the tesuji shown on the lower right is somewhat related (Appears for example in the joseki at the lower left):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 4 . . . . . . . . . O X W . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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