It is currently Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:47 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #41 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:27 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 733
Liked others: 679
Was liked: 137
Rank: Washed up never was
Universal go server handle: Splatted
I thought this was becoming a derailment so have moved the tsumego discussion here: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17396

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #42 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:17 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10554
Liked others: 3501
Was liked: 3313
xela wrote:
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, there's more than one way to do it! Some people learn better from constantly challenging themselves, some benefit more from repetitive drill to reinforce the basics. (And some even get good results by alternating these strategies, one month easy, one month hard or something.)

Unfortunately there's not a lot of controlled scientific studies on long term learning. (In the lab, you can see how much someone improves or retains over a few hours, or even days, but it's much harder to study what happens over a five year period.) So most of the evidence is anecdotal. But I believe that both approaches have about equally good results, for those who have the motivation to stick with it. Of course if the problems are so easy that you get bored and give up, or so hard that you get frustrated and give up, it's not a good long-term plan for you.


You mention of long term learning and controlled studies reminded me of Bartlett's classic, Remembering ( https://archive.org/details/Bartlett193 ... g/mode/2up ). A few years ago I heard a psychologist mention one of Bartlett's results as something that was newly discovered. "We now know. . . ." ;) By chance, Bartlett ran into one of his original subjects some years later, who agreed to try to recall what he had studied before. He recalled some things and misremembered others. :) Bartlett also pointed out the difficulty of controlling the conditions of a psychological study, because of individual differences. The same external situation might be viewed and felt differently by each person.

Your point about motivation is important. A study method that leads to burnout or to unrealized expectations is counterproductive.

It is important to realize that the 50% rule does not mean always challenging yourself, in terms of doing problems. The reason is that you combine it with overlearning. For instance, suppose that you do problems for 30 min. each weekday on the subway. You start on Monday and do 15 problems, missing 7 or 8. Then on Tuesday you do 15 more, ditto for Wednesday and Thursday. By Friday you have around 30 problems that you missed to review for overlearning. This takes you a little less than 30 min., but you still missed 10 of them. You still need to overlearn all of them next week, because you have to get the 20 that you got right on Friday one more time, Also, you will have to get the 10 that you got wrong twice at least three more times, and that's if you get them right next time. So next week you start your overlearning on Thursday. As you can see, overlearning can quickly build up so that it takes a lot of your time. maybe even most of it. You are not constantly doing challenging problems. :)

On overlearning: Many moons ago I bought a book by an amateur pianist, who talked about his experiences and practice. One thing that he did when working on a piece was to practice the parts that he was originally unable to play to the point that they became the strongest part of his performance. He made the analogy to the body healing a broken bone; it makes it extra strong. I liked that idea, and have found it useful, myself. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #43 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:26 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 5
Rank: OGS 10 Kyu
KGS: zafuri95
IGS: zafuri
OGS: jeffreyosw13
Online playing schedule: OGS
Most weekdays / weekends

IGS
Starting out soon
Weekends only
Speaking of tsumego, I've searched a bit of the Chinese written articles (my mother tongue is Chinese) and I've found an answer coming from Lee See Dol himself.
This article is from China's Sina Sports Web news here

Quote:
虽然他曾经屹立在巅峰的位置,但围棋对于他来说仍然是一个“不可知的存在”。李九段说,“业余棋手的问题中,最让我难以答复的问题是,‘为什么要下在那里’。那只是根据多年下棋的感觉下到那里,仅此而已。现在问我为什么要下在那里,让我实在不知道应该怎样回答才好。”

  “围棋,很多时候已经不是二选一,而是三选一。许多时候,只是凭感觉而选择。如果不是简单的棋形,我其实算不了那么深。”


The translation:
"Although Lee was once on the top of the game's competition, to him Go is still a game that is of "unknowable existence". He said: "Among the questions from Go amateurs, the hardest one was "Why should I play here?". To me, the decision was made based on my experience of many years playing Go, that's all. Now even if you ask me again why should I play there, I will still have a hard time explaining why." "Go, in many times is not a choice between 2 options. It could be 3. Many times my decisions were made based on how I felt about them. If they were not simple shapes, I wouldn't be able to read that much deeper."

There's a comment concluded that the difference of strength between players is often on the "intuition" itself. Strong players know and choose the most effective / efficient moves to read, but weaker players have no idea where to start reading and may end up with unproductive reading.

So I believe, the reason for tsumego and Life&Death is to teach shapes, tesujis to improve the "intuition'.


This post by zafuri95 was liked by: Splatted
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #44 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:58 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 5
Rank: OGS 10 Kyu
KGS: zafuri95
IGS: zafuri
OGS: jeffreyosw13
Online playing schedule: OGS
Most weekdays / weekends

IGS
Starting out soon
Weekends only
I've taken in some advice on my posts and concluded with these goals, so here's the weekly update. Not much changes on my routine, just a little more focused and I removed too many distractions that does not motivate me to keep doing it. I'm starting to play games against human players instead of playing against bots. I'm looking forward to reach a certain rank progression in coming weeks :)

GOAL

1. To reach 5k by July **Currently: 10k ~ 8k**

2. To finish the below books by this year (3 rounds for problems; 2 rounds for theories)
THEORIES
a) Shape Up! for a Stylish Baduk
b) Attack & Defense
c) All About Thickness
d) The Breakthrough to Shodan
c) Milton Bradley's Improve Fast in Go
Tesujis / Life & Death
a) Weiqi 1000 Tesujis
b) Weiqi 1000 Life and Deaths
c) Lee ChangHo's Tesuji Collection

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #45 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:58 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1777
Liked others: 463
Was liked: 353
Rank: KGS 1-dan
zafuri95 wrote:
GOAL

1. To reach 5k by July


Just a thought to this goal: Rank measures progress, not skill.

If you like to know whether you got stronger, I'd prefer a goal along the lines of: I can correctly solve ~75% of the problems in Weiqi 1000 Tesuji in under one minute. This you can actually track sensibly.

When you go by rank, there are a lot of variables, which are out of your control: Actual strength of your opponent, state of mind of your opponent, blunders by your opponent, time losses/lag, rank shifts, whether or not you play handicap games and so on.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #46 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:00 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 5
Rank: OGS 10 Kyu
KGS: zafuri95
IGS: zafuri
OGS: jeffreyosw13
Online playing schedule: OGS
Most weekdays / weekends

IGS
Starting out soon
Weekends only
Weekly progress update:-

1. Won my first 3 stones handicap game against a Singapore 3 Dan. The guy was very kind to agree playing against me and review my games. We'd been playing for the past few weeks.
2. Lost 16.5 points in a winning game against local KGS 3 kyu player. It was painful to know I've lost when I'd the advantage. My local club's 3 Dan commended my improvement and I'm pleased on the effectiveness on the change of my game mentality and daily practices. Now I may need to play more games to further refine my new discovery.
3. Approached a more flexible mindset and suppressed by jealousy of territory, I'm starting to accept the trade-offs of territory and influence and less rushed to play and kill. I'm starting to understand what does it mean by "satisfy with opponent living small" because Go in the end, is a game of territory.
4. The fundamentals drill on tesuji (repeating the same technique across different problem patterns) is working fine and I can see vital points more often now. But my reading power still need to improve further. I still have problems reading a contact play, cross cuts and overplays. I'll do more life&deaths and progressively increase the difficulty.
5. Learning how to win a game at advantage is something I need to work on. Perhaps end game knowledge is vital.
6. Online Go server ranks are still stagnant, I'm lacking motivation to really start playing. Maybe I should really care less about my rank, as pointed out by SoDeSune, also rectified by my recent improvements in the most recent 2 games. Just do it and play games, focus on refining new found / learnt knowledge and enjoy the game itself :) (Yes I'm a competitive person and all I ever cared was winning or losing, but Go taught me there's more beyond results.)

You can find my last week game highlights here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: My Path to Shodan - And Eventually to amateur 9D
Post #47 Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:04 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 1
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: 1D
Splatted wrote:
The reasoning is that more complicated tsumego are built on top of the simpler ones. This is an entirely literal statement. The positions found at the beginning of beginner tsumego can also be found 1 or 2 moves in to the solutions of a more advanced ones, and those advanced problems will again be found 1 or 2 moves in to the solutions of yet more advanced tsumego. It is by building this foundation step by step that one learns to solve more advanced problems.

He also stresses that it's important to repeat problems and always read out the answer thoroughly. This applies even when you remember the answer from last time you solved it. I'd also like to mention Kageyama's "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go", which is a book available in English I think many people here have read*. The very first thing he has people do is read out ladders. Of course we all know the solution to a ladder, but that's not the point. It's about reading practice and fully internalising a common pattern.

So my opinion is that although SoDesuNe's experience of improving more from hard problems because they forced him to read is likely very common, the important difference was not the problems themselves, but actually that he was reading in one instance and not the other. In other words I think people are focusing on the wrong variable.




Sorry if I repeat anyone else :)

So, the thing here I like is the focus on reading thoroughly. That said, while much of optimal study is debatable (I myself study and learn very quickly, but even if you use my methods can we say you get the same result? Not really). However, I may be able to convince you that solving easy problems is actually detrimental in comparison with solving real problems (and I hope to show why I say real problems).

Before we get into that, I must mention this pro's advice can be effective -- it's not my intention to say it's bad advice. However, I do think there is better advice AND I don't think upo hearing his advice that majority of players can follow it.

So what is a tsumego problem and why do we do them? Tsumego may actually be a specific reference, but is also used generally for other problem types in which on must analyze a position in Go. We solve them to improve our reading ability.

So does solving easy problems improve our reading ability? Well, let's think about that. We would probably consider the problem easy if its within our ability and not so easy if it pushes us - so already i think if you are looking for easy problems you are specifically preventing yourself from being challenged. You may find this subjective, but you must consider that this subjectivity means people WILL interpret it that way and as such by following this advice many will end up failing to challenge themselves.

On top of this, some define easy based on time to "solve". But what is a "solve" and how are you timing and verifying it within the time? A solve would be to have read out and understood the moves and variations of a position. It is very much NOT simply being able to find the solution one has marked as correct in some answer key or program. Generally if people are timing, they're using a program as well. These programs have the benefit of enforcing a time however they have the downfall of not being able to test what you actually read out aside from the one variation.

On top of this we have the issue of the initial advice and reasoning "Building on top of simpler tsumego" -- This may be true to a degree, however it's not clear advice. I'd posit that touting such a thing as a reason simply encourages people to try to reduce problems to instinctual/vital points. The issue there is that those types of behaviors are not reading, they are where your reading should begin. You don't play the move that feels right, you read the move that feels right and then decide if its a good idea after hopefully considering other moves. The simplest example would be a 3 space eye, one would play the vital point in the center -- would get a problem marked as correct and yet it reads only one move and no responses. It may be silly to think one should read the actual capture since you "know" it will happen, BUT that reading is actually practicing the skill you're supposed to be practicing AND not all situations are equal (which is to say in a real game playing in the center of a 3 space eye because that's how it worked in the problem will not lead to a kill, the group must first be surrounded which itself should be read out to be done efficiently)

These things together, the advice, the types of problems being sought, the impossibility of knowing whether you read out all the variations within 60 seconds, the tools being used - They all encourage many people to avoid reading.

If used properly it CAN still be effective. However, even used properly it's not as effective at improving your reading as maintaining habits which force you to practice reading when that is your goal - Such as just solving problems that aren't too easy out of a book with no answer key. [Having a book or program tell you the answer does not improve your reading even if you read out the problem, its pretty useless to improving your reading skill].

Coming back to the same problems is good as well, as what matters most is that you're reading this in your head. Coming back to problems allows you to much more confidently know if you had solved them and can even show improvements in reading when you realize you missed a variation last time around.

In summary:
Telling people to solve easy tsumego, while a completely legitimate way to improve, actually tells them many things which encourage them to not solve the tsumego at all or to put very little effort into it and either way stifle reading improvement. Also, even when it works it is outshined by the results of practicing deeper reading. These exercises are simple: Practice imagining moves in your head and you become better at doing so -- This is true if you stare at a blank board with no problem, or the hardest problem in he world.

I'd also add that keeping them "easy enough", which is basically just meaning that you won't get bored and walk away, has merit. But it's more about moving on from that which is just beyond you than doing what is "easy". To that end, if you feel like you want to give up on solving all tsumego because the problem is just so hard, then move on to the next one.

"In other words I think people are focusing on the wrong variable." -- With this I'd disagree in part. I do agree that reading focus is what's important. I have to say disagree though because I acknowledge the proposed [and common] advice of solving easy problems is, has and will lead to players who are practicing exactly how not to read. Even with the added bit noticing the importance of the thorough reading -- and this can be seen in attempting to teach players. Give a beginner a tsumego app and try to convince them to read everything in their head before playing it out on the board and I'd be surprised if less than 80% of them just try to brute force the problem sets even while you're giving them the advice to stop doing that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group