Life In 19x19
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Professional Game Study
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3844		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Professional Game Study
So, I've been thinking of some ways to study outside of simply reviewing my games and solving tsumego. The idea that popped into my head was: Study Professional Games.

Of course, at my level, gleaning insight from games played on such a high level could be nigh impossible if I only spend a short time trying to decipher each move played. So, I thought to myself, "how can I study professional games and get real insight from it?"

My solution came with surprising ease. I've decided that I will spend a week studying a single game that was decided by points, not resignation. If a game has around 342 moves, I'll study the 48 moves a day and try to justify each and every move. And by the end of that 1-2 hours, I plan to play the game out, without looking, up to the move number I've studied to. And this will be repeated daily.

And by the end of the week, I'll attempt to play the game out from move 1 all the way to 342. My ideology here is that if I know it, I'll have a better grasp on the flow of stones.

Does this method sound good?

B: Tong Yulin [3d] vs W: Kong Jie [7d]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 7 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



1-4
Moves 1-4: These are obviously corner inclosure moves. Most low level Kyu's know this concept. :P

But to take it in depth, I find B's strategy here intriguing. To be honest, I don't see this fuseki often, and I think it's pretty cool.

3
The only reason I've known people to play this is essentially to prevent the opposing player from doing it. I can also see how it provides a nice way to dip into the corner too, though. Those seem to be the primary reasons behind :b5:


6-8
6
:W6: secures points. B still has D18, of course.

7
B is looking pretty good on the top part of the board in my opinion. B's influence is still very attack-able at this point, but :b7: appears to be a good move in my opinion. It works well with :b5:

8
This move would have puzzled me, but it doesn't. I've watched KGS Legend Murugandi's videos, and so playing R9 actually makes sense to me. Playing Q10 leaves some holes because of :b3: At least that's what I think, anyway.
Author:  mw42 [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
I wouldn't worry about full games; maybe stick to the opening for now. The middle game fighting would probably be too difficult to grasp. There are better ways to learn it, i.e. study tesuji and practice reading (tsumego). The same goes for endgame (tesuji and endgame problems).

By looking at the opening you should learn some joseki, but most importantly you will learn to identify big points.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:12 am ]
Post subject: 
hailthorn011 wrote:
I'll study the 48 moves a day and try to justify each and every move.
Suggestion: after you've picked a game,
post each move on this thread, starting from :b1:, and your justification for it,
and see what kind of feedback you get here.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:
I'll study the 48 moves a day and try to justify each and every move.
Suggestion: after you've picked a game,
post each move on this thread, starting from :b1:, and your justification for it,
and see what kind of feedback you get here.


That's a great idea. Thanks for the suggestion! The game I've decided to study first is:

Kong Jie [7d] vs. Tong Yulin [3d]

It's a game from 2008 or so according to the SGF.
Author:  mw42 [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
Ed just wants free go lessons. ^^
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
mw42 wrote:
I wouldn't worry about full games; maybe stick to the opening for now. The middle game fighting would probably be too difficult to grasp. There are better ways to learn it, i.e. study tesuji and practice reading (tsumego). The same goes for endgame (tesuji and endgame problems).

By looking at the opening you should learn some joseki, but most importantly you will learn to identify big points.


You're definitely right. But I also think there may be some value in shape recognition, especially in middle game.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
mw42 wrote:
Ed just wants free go lessons. ^^


Funny. I'm not sure I'm the one to get lessons from, though. :P
Author:  mw42 [ Thu May 12, 2011 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
My two-cents:
:b5: is a kikashi meant to diminish the value of white playing on top (especially closer to black's corner formation) because he will immediately come under attack.
:w8: is stylistic. It could be played 1 line above or can approach the corner, I believe. The important thing to know is that when there is a shimari, the side the shimari faces becomes very large. Splitting is more "modern" I think whereas the corner approach would be more classic.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
mw42 wrote:
My two-cents:
:b5: is a kikashi meant to diminish the value of white playing on top (especially closer to black's corner formation) because he will immediately come under attack.
:w8: is stylistic. It could be played 1 line above or can approach the corner, I believe. The important thing to know is that when there is a shimari, the side the shimari faces becomes very large. Splitting is more "modern" I think whereas the corner approach would be more classic.


Understood. Thank you.
Author:  mw42 [ Thu May 12, 2011 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
"Understood" implies I spoke factually. Maybe you should "consider" and not "understand" my opinion. :)
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu May 12, 2011 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
mw42 wrote:
"Understood" implies I spoke factually. Maybe you should "consider" and not "understand" my opinion. :)


I meant that as I understand the meaning of what you said. :P
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
mw42 wrote:
Ed just wants free go lessons. ^^
Nice creativity, imagination, and sense of humor. :mrgreen:
Author:  Shaddy [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
It is important to consider the function of each move, but it's also (more?) important to read between the lines. What moves were not played, and why not? This becomes more important as the game progresses, because in the early opening (read: first 5-6, maybe 8 moves) many choices are stylistic, but it still matters now.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
Just make sure to choose games that have already been commentated, ideally by pros. There is no way you'll be able to figure out every move they played by yourself or by most of the people on this forum as well. You'll just end up justifying moves for the wrong reason and get wrong ideas no matter how much time you put into your thoughts. Also, the pro commentary will also allow you to double-check your thoughts with theirs to see if your thought process was correct or not.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri May 13, 2011 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
mw42,
Araban wrote:
There is NO WAY you'll be able to figure out every move they played by yourself or by Most Of The People on this forum as well.
You'll just end up justifying moves for the Wrong Reason and get wrong ideas NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME you put into your thoughts.
This is one kind of feedback I had in mind for hailthorn011 (emphases added). :)
Author:  Kirby [ Fri May 13, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
I have mixed feelings about the last couple of comments in this thread. It's true that amateur players may, by and large, have difficulty in understanding the reason behind why a pro played a particular move.

But I think that going over a game, even if it doesn't have commentary, provides a couple of benefits:
1.) It will give you new ideas that you may not have thought of before. Maybe you'll see some interesting shapes. When you are in a common situation in a real game, maybe the move you saw is not the correct move to play, but at least you've had exposure to the move, and you can consider something like it.

2.) Even if you investigate the position and come up with the wrong reasons, the investigation in itself is still worthwhile, in my opinion. You might be wrong about something, but at least you can exercise your mind in thinking about it.

That said, guidance from stronger players - pros especially - may lead one into the correct direction more quickly than you might have on your own otherwise. :-)
Author:  EdLee [ Fri May 13, 2011 4:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Kirby wrote:
going over a game, even if it doesn't have commentary, provides a couple of benefits
One counter-example is I've seen people -- both from our local club (including myself) and online,
from around high kyu to low- to mid-dan levels, "copy" pro moves
either consciously or subconsciously (re: by osmosis a la Kirby),
only to find out later from a pro that they/we completely misunderstood the meanings
behind the pro moves so that the "copying" was not only wrong,
but in some cases even became bad habits that had to be undone.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

When inseis and pros replay and study pro games, they are
on a completely different level than my,
and I take the liberty to include Kirby's and hailthorn011's, levels.

As always, your mileage may vary. :mrgreen:
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri May 13, 2011 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Professional Game Study
Araban wrote:
Just make sure to choose games that have already been commentated, ideally by pros. There is no way you'll be able to figure out every move they played by yourself or by most of the people on this forum as well. You'll just end up justifying moves for the wrong reason and get wrong ideas no matter how much time you put into your thoughts. Also, the pro commentary will also allow you to double-check your thoughts with theirs to see if your thought process was correct or not.
"Just make sure you only review your games when they have been commented by a pro. There is no way you'll be able to figure out every mistake you made by yourself or by most of the people on this forum as well. You'll just end up justifying moves that are bad, or good moves for the wrong reason and get wrong ideas no matter how much time you put into your thoughts."

...just to get the ball rolling.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri May 13, 2011 6:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
hyperpape wrote:
"Just make sure you only review YOUR games when..."
(Emphasis added) Not sure what that means; everyone else here is talking about pro games.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Kirby wrote:
going over a game, even if it doesn't have commentary, provides a couple of benefits
One counter-example is I've seen people -- both from our local club (including myself) and online,
from around high kyu to low- to mid-dan levels, "copy" pro moves
either consciously or subconsciously (re: by osmosis a la Kirby),
only to find out later from a pro that they/we completely misunderstood the meanings
behind the pro moves so that the "copying" was not only wrong,
but in some cases even became bad habits that had to be undone.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

When inseis and pros replay and study pro games, they are
on a completely different level than my,
and I take the liberty to include Kirby's and hailthorn011's, levels.

As always, your mileage may vary. :mrgreen:


Those people are not actually thinking, but just copying, then. I think that the benefit comes from thinking through something by yourself.

The analysis is more helpful than the actual moves. So I agree that copying moves won't do much good.

But analysis of a pro game - or even your own game - cannot hurt.
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