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6k in need of outside input
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8036		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  papabob [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  6k in need of outside input
This is my first post on L19, although I've been following it for over a year. I've been playing for 15 months and am currently 6k. I've become more serious about the game and recently changed my study schedule.

For the first 14 months, I played 4-8 games a week, reviewed my own games, and studied randomly. Now, I play 5 games a week, each preceded by an Internet Go School lecture. I continue to review my games, and do 60 minutes of life and death on the weekends. All games are 5+5x30.

I would greatly appreciate if stronger players could review some of my games. My training so far has been in almost complete isolation. Once I'm strong enough, I'll return the favor and help others with their reviews. I'll post games every week as long as people are willing to contribute.

I've attached two games I played this week. Variations are pieces of my review.

Thanks for your help!





Attachments:
Jacare-papabob_lost_5k_l19.sgf [5.05 KiB]
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cyclotron-papabob_lost_5k_l19.sgf [6.42 KiB]
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Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
first game
move #45:
when you are being attacked there are many moves that will give you points before you secure your life.
white attacked with #44 which is wrong timing.
this is a perfect timing for you to play B19 endgame.
Stronger players will not miss such golden chance to gain points.
combination of few points here and there will decide the game.
after you secure your life there is no guarantee that endgame will be your sente.

hope that help.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
A few comments. :)
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
And some comments from me, too ^^ I just noticed others were faster, so I hope we don't contradict each other : )
Author:  papabob [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Really appreciate the comments, all of which were extremely helpful. I've included specific responses below.

By the way, great study journal SoDesuNe. Way to keep at it.

Magicwand
Game 1
You make a great point, and B19 is a move I would not think to play. Thanks for the reminder on securing points while making eyes.

Bill Spight
Game 1
9: I'll play R12 instead next game.
13: I also prefer C10; I tend to invade too deeply when I give white a large framework, and am increasingly playing for as "scattered" of a board as possible, instead of mutual frameworks
21: Good move, thanks for the follow-ups.
33: I don't think I should've invaded D17 to begin with. H17 to invade, J16 to reduce. I need to improve my reducing game.
50: Thanks for your analysis. That's exactly how the game turned out; his outside thickness led to significant territory. The attempted D17 invasion was mishandled.
51: Very interesting plays at P9 and P10. P9 doesn't usually come to mind, let alone P10, but they will next time.

Thanks Bill. A game review from a high dan is extremely valuable.

SoDesuNe
Game 1
7: I agree, and wish I'd played C. Bill Spight agrees with you as well.
9: Good points. As you noted, I looked into B and like the direction that takes me.
12: He does develop faster. I have a tendency to develop slower and fall behind early. Being outplayed in the opening.
14: I thought the same, as I'm pushing white into an ideal formation. Should've played F3 at C10.
16: Leaves me H17, which I only discovered in the review.
21: Thank you for playing this invasion out. Less obvious to me than to others. Very helpful.
33: A is phenomenal. Hadn't thought of it at this moment, and it's a great move
41: You're absolutely right
45: Very beginner move, I agree
51: I thought a while before moving 51, and agree that there are much bigger moves. F6 and R12 were both better moves. Bill suggested P10 or P9.
59: Agree with A and B.
97: Hadn't thought of this. Thanks for playing it out. Much better.
123: Me either. I was trying to complicate the center without reading it out. The following sequence proves it…

Really appreciate the comments. I'll be on the lookout for updates to your study journal.
Author:  papabob [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Thanks again for your previous comments. I played in my first AGA tournament and made 5k on KGS this past week, so your reviews helped tremendously.

I've attached two games I lost last week. I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts. Variations are from my review.

Thanks!





Attachments:
naoto-papabob_lost_l19.sgf [5.91 KiB]
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papabob-mokko_lost_l19.sgf [5.92 KiB]
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Author:  skydyr [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
For the first game:

Move 19: Black chose to take the corner at the expense of his side group, so that means white needs to trash black's side group instead of defending the much stronger wall. As soon as black's side group strengthens itself, this changes from a great result for white to a poor one.

Move 22: Small. If you're worried about the white wall, approach the UL corner from the top side.

Move 40: White has been making influence based moves so far. Taking 8 points here is small compared to the influence black gets to counter white's. White's S12 group can severely limit black's territorial prospects here, so there's not much to worry about.

Move 44: Why not Q5?

Move 54: This seems to start the middle game, but there are still big moves left, like an approach to the top left stone, and an extension from white's wall on the BL. Getting the last move of a section of the game is important.

Sequence to 64: This is good. Black should perhaps have let himself be cut and run.

Sequence to 95: It's better for white to keep black's two stones cut and give black the side. This sequence gives white 3 points in exchange for most of the potential that white's wall had.

Move 96: White has enough influence on the top and right that I think white would be better off playing border plays like F15 and O5 or so, to expand his moyo and limit black's. A cap or so may also be good. Invading like this helps black build strength to reduce white's moyo after the dust settles.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Some 1-kyu-ish comments =)
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
i will not go overboard on what is wrong with your play...
game 1:

let's take a look at move 20:
Q13 is better shape than your move. learn that shape for the future game.
Q13 will almost capture that stone aji free.

78: almost always capture the stone he cut.

there are many moves that i didnt like but above can be fixed by solidifying your fundamental knowledge of shape.

word of advice...
if you can not read how you are going to live in your opponent's influence...do not choose that path. only play what you can read and are comfortable to play.
Author:  skydyr [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
For the second:

Move 22: Why not jump with a knight's move to stay ahead? White has to struggle to live, and black gets to erase a lot of white's influence, negating the moyo strategy.

Move 31: Why cap and then tenuki to invade here? The other order makes more sense. In any case, white seems to have chosen the wrong direction.

Move 40: Give up 4-5 points to make a base so you don't get pressured as much and cut off the white topside stone.

Move 45: Why play this if you don't intend to cut?

Move 51: No complaints about specifics if you choose this route. There's less aji than with the ogeima for white to exploit.

Move 57: What about H14 to get out in good shape? Black's group is still not alive and is between two strong white groups. In the sequence that follows, black has two weak groups that are split by a white one with two strong white groups on the outside. It's inevitable that one or the other black group will suffer.

The rest of the game seems to be an extension of this fight, where white can reduce black while threatening black's weaker groups.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
skydyr wrote:
Move 31: Why cap and then tenuki to invade here? The other order makes more sense. In any case, white seems to have chosen the wrong direction.


Actually that is a common probing technique. White's Keima ends up in a bad place after the 3*3-invasion so the exchange is very good for Black. If Black invades directly, White will most likely don't answer with this Keima when Black caps again since there is already a strong wall backing up a more aggressive move.
Author:  skydyr [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
SoDesuNe wrote:
skydyr wrote:
Move 31: Why cap and then tenuki to invade here? The other order makes more sense. In any case, white seems to have chosen the wrong direction.


Actually that is a common probing technique. White's Keima ends up in a bad place after the 3*3-invasion so the exchange is very good for Black. If Black invades directly, White will most likely don't answer with this Keima when Black caps again since there is already a strong wall backing up a more aggressive move.


Hmm... don't think I've seen it before. Thanks.
Author:  mitsun [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Some comments on the second game:

27) Your move is playable, but I would keep pushing. It is important to strengthen your center cutting stones. A sequence like K4-L3, L4-M3, M4-N3, N4 would be great for B. White could try K4-L3, L4-M4, M5-N5, but then N2 would still be good for B.

29) Your move at M3 prevented W from making a base here, but induced W to attack your center stones. A natural continuation would be something like J6 or H7, leading to a running fight with equal chances. If W gets to play here first, J5 would make it very hard for B to save these stones, yet they are really too big to give up.

39) Block at B18 (but first verify that W has no profitable cuts). Letting W get B18 in sente is intolerable.

No comments on the long middle game fight ...

119) The diagonal move Q6 is nice. This attacks W eye shape and also makes more territory than the game move.

199) Playing F7 is roughly 15 points better.
Author:  papabob [ Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Really appreciate all of your comments. I spent a good deal of time reviewing them, and they're helping me begin to detect common threads in my mistakes.

I've attached individual responses below. Have a great weekend everyone.

skydyr
First Game
19: Absolutely; move 20 should have been at Q13, or playing elsewhere with F17 or O3.
22: Same with this move; far too small, I agree.
40: SoDesuNe agrees with you too. S12 limited black's potential here, and taking the corner isn't as strong as continuing the push at K4.
54: Splitting these groups, although it eventually worked out, wasn't the right decision to begin with; the top left corner is screaming for attention.
96: Yeah; this was far too deep and unnecessary.

Second Game
40: mistune (5d) agrees; allowing B18 in sente is terrible.
45: No need to invade here, but if I did, but if I did, a couple moves higher would've been better.
57: You're right, H14 would help get this group out with good shape.

Magicwand
First Game
20: Q13 was absolutely the right idea here. Other reviewers have said F17 or O3 would also work. R15 was slow and weak.
78: The morning after I read this comment, Guo Juan said in one of her lectures to "almost always capture the cutting stone." Thanks for bringing that to my attention first!

SoDesuNe
First Game
16: R17 is much better than what I played; I didn't even think of it. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
20: Almost all the reviewers agree; this was slow, and would've been better at any of the spots you suggested.
28: You're right; if black would've followed joseki, I would've been in trouble.
36: I worried about the cut at H4 after the sequence you gave.
40: I agree with A. S12 limits black's potential on the right. Continuing to push might be better.
46: Thanks
52: Agreed; A was connecting living groups and not necessary. I'd play D if I had another chance
74: Didn't see this; A should've been clear.
90: Ko, that's great. Didn't even see it. Good catch.

Second Game
7: I've played A in 2-3 games since seeing this comment, and it is much more comfortable than Q10.
8: This was an odd move.
27: Great principle, and you're absolutely right. M3 does almost nothing.
43: Playing A should've been instinct. Thanks.

mitsun
Second Game
27: I definitely should've pushed. Playing from the strong side while pushing white into a soon-to-be heavy black group was bad.
29: J6 or H7 were both great ideas. It seems neither of us recognized the importance of playing here.
39: Agreed.
119: Very nice, I should've read this out. Played a 2 space low extension without thinking; very beginner.
199: I can't believe I missed this…thanks for bring it to my attention.
Author:  papabob [ Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
I'm considering switching my current balance of lectures to games from 5:5/week to 3:7/week or 2:8/week. Reasons are to get in more games, and allow increasingly challenging Internet Go School lectures more time to sink in. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I've attached two games I lost last week. Variations are pieces from my own review.

Thanks again for your help!



Author:  EdLee [ Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Author:  mitsun [ Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Comments on first new game:

You played an excellent opening and early middle game -- nothing really to criticize in the first thirty or so moves. Very nice.

(Ed -- :b17: is joseki and fine for B. In fact, W sometimes answers at F15 rather than E14 to avoid a pushing contest. This is a very big point for W also if B plays elsewhere, so it is worth a full move in the opening.)

I would answer :w30: at Q7, just to take more territory. Note that if W draws back to Q9, B can extend to P7, and W cannot cut. Giving W two forcing moves here seems slightly submissive.

:w34: is an interesting invasion. At first glance, it looked like an overplay to me, since B has so many forcing moves above, but I cannot see a convincing way to punish it, so maybe it is good. B play through move 39 is nice. Pushing once more on top at H15 should also be sente for B.

:b41: looks like a good attack, but :b43: is not consistent and looks awful. After the first move, B is pretty much committed to hane at G10 and fight it out. Other alternatives for :b41: are E10 or F10, but these also lead to complicated fights. If you see no convincing attack, you could play elsewhere and see how the situation develops. Switch to the Q9 fight for example. W will have to be careful in this fight not to give B enough strength to come back and kill the D10 stone.

:b49: is an unnecessary defensive move in the middle of a game-deciding battle. If W cuts at E14, B would be happy to give up three stones, taking forcing moves which help a lot in the center fight. Instead of this move, I think I would simply cut at D11 for a large profit. W might fill the ko, but his group would still be subject to attack, and I think B would have a comfortable lead.

B play through move 63 was again very good. This seems like a good place to pause and count the score. Most of the board is settled, so it should be possible to get a reasonably accurate count. I suggest that as a useful exercise as part of your review. If you find that B is comfortably ahead, then it would be prudent to keep the endgame simple.

The invasion :b65: looks hopeless and might be the worst move of the game. In the sequence through move 102, B managed to get away with it, but did not really gain anything for all that effort. And I think with good play, W probably could have killed the invasion, so B was risking a lot. How about simply playing O15 or O16 instead? Let W have some points on top, but take an equal number of points along the right side. Push once at H15 first. W really does not get very many points on top and would actually end up over-concentrated.

:b103: is an interesting invasion and may actually work, but I question its necessity. Again, I would count the score first, before embarking on something this complicated. But the continuation to 112 was very good for B, so I cannot really criticize the invasion itself. You played well here.

:b113: is trying much too hard. Compared to cutting at D11, B attempts to gain maybe 5 points, but risks losing over 20 points (if W wins the ko after playing D11). Not a good risk-reward scenario. I think I would call this the losing move.

B made a few mistakes during and after the ko fight. Of course, looking at the outcome, it would be better to ignore :w140: than :w146:. After the disaster up to :w150:, B continued with a few bad knee-jerk responses. On review, I am sure you can see that the exchange 151-152 is horrible for B, and the next few moves also just help W. Even at this late stage, if B played to give up those stones on as small a scale as possible, say with forcing moves around J6, the result might be close.

All in all, this was a pretty good game for B. You played many really nice moves, did a good job of reading out most of the fights, and lost just because of a few lapses in judgment. When the game reaches a pause in the fighting, or a strategy decision point of some sort, I really recommend taking a few minutes to estimate the score, in order to help guide your strategy.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
mitsun, thanks!
Author:  papabob [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k in need of outside input
Thank you both for your comments. I've played well recently against 5kyus, and hope to continue.

It will be interesting when I reach the rank (1-3d?) where games aren't decided by mistakes. It's hard to imagine playing a game where the outcome is decided by good/better/best moves, not good/bad moves. I often think that playing go is like playing an instrument. It takes years of practice to play even the most basic piece without mistakes. And then it changes into something entirely different.

I've included move-by-move responses to your reviews below. Thanks again.

EdLee
First Game
48: I agree with the take. Not sure why I didn't consider it.
117: Great point; I really don't. Moved it instinctively. Not good.
137: Still improving detecting, playing, and timing ko threats. Have a lot of work to do.
148: I hadn't seen the 153 move variation you included. Thanks.

Second Game
11: Your 12 was much better than mine; took a couple seconds trying to decide how to respond, and R6 was stronger and simpler.
13: Black's Q6 move is too strong; thanks for playing that out.

Mitsun
First Game
Thanks for the support on the opening decisions. I have the overly simplistic notion that if you play a strong opening, the rest of the game will follow. I wonder if that notion will shift overtime from the opening, to the middlegame, to the endgame as my opponents get stronger.
17: I appreciate the explanation on this joseki. I played it knowing it was joseki, but didn't fully understand why.
30: Q7 is much stronger; this move was instinctive, not a good sign.
34: I thought 34 was necessary but was certain I'd gain from my response. I couldn't see why H15 would be sente for black…
43: Awful, agreed. Not sure what I was thinking. 43 at G10, and I'd be in a phenomenal place.
49: Good point. Sacrificing those three stones is an easy decision.
63: While I still believe 5:00+5x30 games are fantastic for growth, they don't give much time to count, which has created a bad habit. I'm working on improving my quick estimation of who's ahead, but if it's anything within 15 points, I usually can't tell. Definitely something I need to work on.
65: White should have easily killed this stone. I have a bad habit of "hating my opponent's territory," as Guo Juan 5p puts it, and invading when I don't need to. I still wasn't sure who was ahead, and even if I was set on invading, the top is much more solid than the bottom left. Regardless, I should've developed with O15 instead of invading altogether.
103: Another example of an unnecessary invasion.
113: I completely agree. I tend to make the game overly complicated and risky when I'm leading, or even if the game is close, and starting a ko battle here was insane.

Thanks for your general comments at the bottom. It was helpful to hear that I played a couple strong moves. I'll work on my counting so I can count quicker and, more importantly, think to count in middle game to guide whether I play safely or invade.
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