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Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
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Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Hi there.

Im working through All about L&D again. I try to look at some deviations of the explained main lines and wanted to have a place where i can put some doubtful insights, so others can have my doubts too.

Im beginning with a standard fail attack on the haned L+1 Group with leg on the short side.

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ | 5 . . b X . .
$$ | 2 1 X X O O .
$$ | 3 a X O . . .
$$ | 4 X X O . . .
$$ | . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Now black can choose between a and b, the book suggests (a), but (b) looked more natural to me, so I wanted to prove it inferior.

Go Diagram
:b2: elsewhere
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: elsewhere
$$ --------------
$$ | O . . 3 X . .
$$ | c O X X O O .
$$ | O X X O . . .
$$ | X X X O . . .
$$ | 1 O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
And now :b4: at c fights the ko: An one approach move ko
If White plays at 3 first :
Go Diagram
:b4: at :b2: and :w5: at :w3:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: at :b2: and :w5: at :w3:
$$ --------------
$$ | O 2 3 1 X . .
$$ | . O X X O O .
$$ | O X X O . . .
$$ | X X X O . . .
$$ | . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Go Diagram
Lives in double ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Lives in double ko
$$ --------------
$$ | O . O 6 X . .
$$ | . O X X O O .
$$ | O X X O . . .
$$ | X X X O . . .
$$ | . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


The other variant with b in the first diagram:
Go Diagram
:b4: elsewhere :b6: fights the ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: elsewhere :b6: fights the ko
$$ --------------
$$ | O 2 3 X X 5 .
$$ | . O X X O O .
$$ | O . X O . . .
$$ | X X X O . . .
$$ | 1 O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

In both cases we have an approach move ko and the only difference is the sacrifice point at :b2:.
Author:  jts [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
I suspect this is the problem with "b":

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ | 5 7 . 6X . .
$$ | 2 1 X X O O .
$$ | 3 a X O . . .
$$ | 4 X X O . . .
$$ | . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Yay, I somehow missed that one. Thx
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Fri May 17, 2013 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting fight in a nonsense game
One of my late night games ended in an interesting fight.
I sure did some serious bad thing to let me split that easily. I tried to get my way out somehow and tried every turn.
At move 93 my opponent somehow stumbled. I tried to find the right answer afterwards, but only with mediocre results.



Attachments:
0518.sgf [1.75 KiB]
Downloaded 929 times
05182.sgf [1.26 KiB]
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Author:  jts [ Fri May 17, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
That's a funny game - what a dumpling black got!

30 and 32 seem a bit sheepish. There's no sense in giving atari at B13 if you don't plan to play the ko, right? After 32, you've taken gote twice, but you've gotten a worse result than if you had, for example, played B13 at B12.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Sun May 26, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
A game again. The Tides were turning often as we both blundered much. The end was still close.


Attachments:
0528.sgf [2.3 KiB]
Downloaded 904 times
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Fri May 31, 2013 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Today one game from the category "Get strong at losing graceful". See yourself.


Finally lost at move 185 after the tide turning 2 times :D.

Also played my first kgs after some years.

Attachments:
0531.sgf [1.64 KiB]
Downloaded 843 times
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Im doing the graded Go problems 3 at the moment, cause i only want to bruise through problems right now and am too lazy to think hard. Still funny what mistakes i can make with these ddk problems. Today I had to stop and think at one problem for fifteen minutes to get it wrong after all. :(

Go Diagram
weak carpenters
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B weak carpenters
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . , . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


I came up with 2 "solutions"

Go Diagram
2 and 3 can be ommited ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 2 and 3 can be ommited ?
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . 6 . 0 9 . . . . . |
$$ | 7 1 5 O 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | 8 O O X X . . . , . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


Go Diagram
Soulution 2 11 at a
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Soulution 2 11 at a
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . 5 . 6 a . . . . . |
$$ | 9 1 4 O 3 . . . . . |
$$ | 8 2 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | 7 O O X X . . . , . |
$$ | 0 X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


I thought the first to be better cause no outside assumptions are needed one space down left. I looked at the solution and mine wasn't there. (deviation at :b5: at soution 1). If you like, refute.
My tries are somewhat doubtful, like always at these damn corners. :D
Go Diagram
Refutation ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Refutation ?
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . 5 b . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 1 3 O a . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . , . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]

With :b5: at a and b it eventually becomes a ko with white takin first. But i had a hard time with 5.

If white tries like below the points are miai

Go Diagram
1 and 2 miai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 1 and 2 miai
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O X . X . . . |
$$ | 1 O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


Escape route can't be blocked without ko, so you gott let white run.

Go Diagram
ko with :b4: threating kill at :b5:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W ko with :b4: threating kill at :b5:
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . X 5 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | 4 O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


This as the best refutation. Either I miss something again or its a bit hard for maybe 12 kyus.

Go Diagram
escaping
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W escaping
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . X . . 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | O X X O 1 4 3 9 . . |
$$ | . O 2 O X 6 X . . . |
$$ | 8 O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
I hate it losin drunk to guys 5 stones worse than me ten times in a row.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
I thihk this game was intersting as there was a big trade and a messy fight, but it was just a 10 min blitz so no deep thoughts in it.



P.S.: had to correct the most embarrasing typose ^^

Attachments:
201307172036.sgf [6.08 KiB]
Downloaded 744 times
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
I really had problems against the 8 kyus on wbaduk, but now i beat up the 6 kyu's like i did with the nerds in school. must be a mood thing. Today winnig is fashion, Maybe tomorrow is a losin day.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Problem from Graded Go Problems
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------------+[/go]


Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . a . O . . |
$$ | . O X , . . 1 X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------------+[/go]

Solution says a lives. Fine. I think :b1: also live is just 3 points smaller.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
I now also see a solution to one of my older problems:


Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . X 4 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 O X . X . . . |
$$ | 5 O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]


and white can't approach.
Author:  CnP [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Shinkenjoe wrote:
Problem from Graded Go Problems
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------------+[/go]



I don't think your solution works, since White could play as:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X 3 2 4 . O . . |
$$ | . O X , a . 1 X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X b O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------------+[/go]

and a and b are then miai to kill. Apologies if I've missed something
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Quote:
I don't think your solution works, since White could play as:


Yes. Thanks. I somehow was too blind for the b.
Author:  schawipp [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
A few small remarks to your last posted game:

On move 26 I would just solidify the corner with D17 and ask the single black stone, what he wants there. If he tries to escape you will take profit in the corner and on upper side; if not it's also no problem ;)


Regarding your "punishment" in the upper right corner, I think it works if you made the solid connection on O16 instead of N16:

Go Diagram
W could press black further down this way
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Go Diagram
If b plays this way there is indeed a "liberty problem"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W If b plays this way there is indeed a "liberty problem"
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Go Diagram
If b solidifies, Q15 can be captured in a ladder (if it works...)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W If b solidifies, Q15 can be captured in a ladder (if it works...)
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Go Diagram
With the loose connection b can atari on move 4; bad result for w
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W With the loose connection b can atari on move 4; bad result for w
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 6 . . |
$$ . . . O 5 O 3 X . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Edit: The corner positions were all shifted by one line...
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
schawipp wrote:
A few small remarks to your last posted game:

On move 26 I would just solidify the corner with D17 and ask the single black stone, what he wants there. If he tries to escape you will take profit in the corner and on upper side; if not it's also no problem ;)



Y that would be definitely better than my having to tenuki two times and get him all secure and everything, cause there was no reasonable move there.

Quote:
Go Diagram
W could press black further down this way
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



I'd be happy as black with this. My corner is safe and all is connected and strong.
And white gets almost zero: he shfits potentially territory somewhat, but only occupies dame points and the influence of 3 is cancelled by the strengthening of blacks extension.

Go Diagram
Josekipedia says:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Josekipedia says:
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Author:  jts [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
But if you're happy with this,

Go Diagram
W could press black further down this way
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Wouldn't you be happier if B played as in the next diagram, leaving the weakness at 'a' ...?

Go Diagram
W could press black further down this way
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 a . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This looks like B has just learned to play go. But in fact, this is the joseki you showed. The joseki just shows s14 exchanged for s16 already. If you can be happy with the first diagram, you should be even happier with the joseki.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
Quote:
Wouldn't you be happier if B played as in the next diagram, leaving the weakness at 'a' ...?


As White yes, as black not. I dont quite get what your aiming at.

Go Diagram
Joseki continued
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki continued
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



And a is a sente possibility to make the weakness dangerous. As in the game i already had a stone in that area it -

All this is not possible in your first diagram.

After looking at these josekis they dont look much different than what was played in the game- I guess there is some move order opportunity fo black to thwart this line, if white cuts at :b2: first (like in game), but i would have to study that more. Also could be that it's just better in terms of ko threat usefullness.
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shinkenjoe vs Free Time
arg edit war. :(
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