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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #441 Posted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:51 am 
Dies in gote
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Oof, that resonated with me on a spiritual level.

(Assuming you're playing white) I commend you for passing and not connecting at 7 yourself. As Yuan Zhou said about Go Seigen (paraphrased): "Go Seigen didn't just care about winning, he cared about finding out the truth."

Regardless of whether that actually was Go Seigen's mindset, it is one that I respect :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #442 Posted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:16 am 
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Farodin wrote:
Oof, that resonated with me on a spiritual level.

(Assuming you're playing white) I commend you for passing and not connecting at 7 yourself. As Yuan Zhou said about Go Seigen (paraphrased): "Go Seigen didn't just care about winning, he cared about finding out the truth."

Regardless of whether that actually was Go Seigen's mindset, it is one that I respect :bow:


It wasn't just Go Seigen. When I learned go in Japan, I was taught that the purpose of reading was not to win, but to discover the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #443 Posted: Sun May 17, 2020 10:04 am 
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Yes, I was White and it was even a won game ^^

The curious thing is, I did read that :b7:-cut from the beginning but I totally missed the atari with his corner group. I also totally missed that I could atari and capture other stones without any snapback worries.

I guess I'm a bit wiser now?

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #444 Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:50 am 
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All my games lately...

Maybe more coffee.


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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #445 Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 pm 
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When Bill says it's good to be consistent, I don't think he meant like that. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #446 Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:48 pm 
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So, I'm enjoying blitz even more nowadays (1/5*20). I mentioned it elsewhere that I think more time does not benefit the majority of players when they are not strong enough to make use of it. In my case more time leads to reading a lot of bad candidate moves and often times I convice myself that one of them is actually good (sunken cost fallacy?).

My chess trainer once told me that if I can consistently read three moves ahead (thus not falling for a two-move-tactic) I would be master level. Since according to studies strong chess players don't necessarily read deeper than weaker ones but focus on the good moves and therefore come to better conclusions faster, I believe playing blitz games can be quite promising.

Still me and my opponents blunder our fair share of ddk-l&d-stuff but losing is learning and one of these days I will also learn to attack correctly and not to force my opponent to solidfy a 100-points-moyo.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #447 Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:30 pm 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
My chess trainer once told me that if I can consistently read three moves ahead (thus not falling for a two-move-tactic) I would be master level.


That's 5 ply (5 go moves), right?

Humans are better at depth first search than breadth first search. But if you have read to depth 5 in, say, 5 different region of the board you can often stitch those moves together into a deeper whole board search without too much loss of accuracy. OC, that means reading locally to depth 5 by either player at each node, which is no mean feat.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #448 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:38 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
So, I'm enjoying blitz even more nowadays (1/5*20).


A great man once said "Above all, study what you like."

Quote:
I mentioned it elsewhere that I think more time does not benefit the majority of players when they are not strong enough to make use of it. In my case more time leads to reading a lot of bad candidate moves and often times I convice myself that one of them is actually good (sunken cost fallacy?).


Analysis paralysis is a real trap I have seen with beginners. But you're a 1 dan. Surely you have a decent intuition of good candidates. Whether they apply in the situation at hand, which is the best one, or if none of them satisfies you (hence tenuki), requires reading. Myself I'm thinking to abandon my standard game setup of 5+5x30 into something that allows for more reading.

But as a great man once said ...

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #449 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:38 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
My chess trainer once told me that if I can consistently read three moves ahead (thus not falling for a two-move-tactic) I would be master level.


That's 5 ply (5 go moves), right?

Humans are better at depth first search than breadth first search. But if you have read to depth 5 in, say, 5 different region of the board you can often stitch those moves together into a deeper whole board search without too much loss of accuracy. OC, that means reading locally to depth 5 by either player at each node, which is no mean feat.


Correct, that's where candidate moves and experience come in handy, I guess. You don't read unnecessary moves and you don't read sequences leading to unfavourable results. But expertise in both can't really be trained unless you play a lot and try a lot and hopefully remember a lot, too - is at least my take for the moment ; ) (Somewhat refreshing from force-feeding my way through tsumego-book-cycles)

So I play blitz to play a lot, I try a lot, I remember... well hard to tell :blackeye:

Knotwilg wrote:
Analysis paralysis is a real trap I have seen with beginners. But you're a 1 dan. Surely you have a decent intuition of good candidates. Whether they apply in the situation at hand, which is the best one, or if none of them satisfies you (hence tenuki), requires reading.


To quote Jay-Z on Numb/Encore: "Thank you, thank you, thank you, you're far too kind!"

But I would argue chosing which candidate move requires experience or more precise judgement (not talking about primarily tactical situations now). Reading - for me - primarily longs to go... into the unknoooooown! Into the unknOoOoOoOoOwn! (It was a long week) For me a candidate move implies a sense of continuation, why else would it pop up in this situation? If it is totally uncalled for that should point to (lack of) experience.

Now the crossroad might be whether you think either proving yourself right or wrong by checking (reading) is more beneficial than playing it out and learning through experience (both to an extent of course, I do imagine stones now and then, too). It could also end in which way you enjoy more, of course. I did my fair share of reading and longer games. Didn't bring me much short of time trouble in midgame and arguably my fast games now follow the same patterns as my slow games. Only in the fast games I don't read the moves my opponents don't play :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #450 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:09 pm 
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Play fast, review slow was some advice I got a long time ago (maybe here?) and the longer I play the game and the stronger I get the more it makes sense to me. I think there certainly is some merit to the idea of not thinking of reading when playing as the same as when reviewing or doing problems. The latter two are you internalising of patterns that your brain will "quick-fetch" when playing and throw up as the candidate moves along with some lines already read out. I say some merit as you will have to "read the hard way" in games sometimes, but it probably shouldn't be our go to as kyu or low dan players. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #451 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:13 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
Play fast, review slow was some advice I got a long time ago (maybe here?) and the longer I play the game and the stronger I get the more it makes sense to me.


I do ponder turning points in my blitz games afterwards. There are of course skewed by my identifying them as turning points. I don't really use bots anymore to anaylse because their suggestions are - for me - too much "out there".

To play more fast games is an idea I mainly got from the children chess course which - in normal times - runs parallel to our go club. These kids are incredible fast in making solid decisions for things they do know. They mostly don't lose a piece due to a one-mover, too. I probably would beat them in a serious tournament setting because I can actually read better but in blitz it's more like 50:50. In my opinion that tells a lot about having the fundamentals down.

My goal for now is to improve the bottom end of my "best-move-spread". I'm fine when I play at like 75% efficiency on avarage but I don't like the occaisional 30% outlier.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #452 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:11 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
Play fast, review slow was some advice I got a long time ago (maybe here?) and the longer I play the game and the stronger I get the more it makes sense to me.


I do ponder turning points in my blitz games afterwards. There are of course skewed by my identifying them as turning points. I don't really use bots anymore to anaylse because their suggestions are - for me - too much "out there".


Something I found very helpful in reviewing with bots that avoided that specific issue was turning off "show best move" and just having it give me a point value for moves, so White + 0.5 or whatever. Then I would play through sequences around points where my opponents or I deviated far from good play, or points which I find interesting. I get feedback that can help find better responses for both but still stay within "moves I can see." It's also useful figuring out why a move has significant negative point swing too I think. Assuming you don't click around randomly trying to find the answer like some bad habit left over from doing tsumego on a phone.


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