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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #401 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:13 pm 
Gosei
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First game against a 3-dan.

Made a direction-of-play-mistake early on and never recovered. Did not have the gut for going all-in, too. Should work on kiai : D



Played a 3-dan Fox game after that. Had a promising position and threw it away because I was too focused on killing a group and then I missed that he could cut a group of mine...

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #402 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:04 am 
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Regarding this game and my comment on move 21: It's not a mistake.

Just watched Micheal Redmond's 3*3-joseki-lecture (https://youtu.be/2khNnE5Q3GM) and it is the modern way to play this joseki when White in this case stretches instead of double-hane. So I guess my hane at the head of three stones was good and mistakes were made later.

SoDesuNe wrote:
My game to 2-dan KGS.

A lot of mistakes, the last one luckily by my opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #403 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm 
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My rebound game to 2-dan.

Please help me out on moves:

:w38:, :w68: and onwards (especially :w78: ), :w96: and :w97: - thanks : )


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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #404 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:32 pm 
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38 - I might just enclose top left. Pincer is sort of pointless because of black K4 stone. The game variation is fine.

48 - I'd much rather enclose the corner.

66 is a touch slow
68 - This is a move for very exceptional circumstances. When the group you're reinforcing is strong, you should hardly think of it. This should be H16.
70 is a bad exchange
72 appears questionable
74 is a bad exchange. Change the order, imagine you played 74 first - then Black naturally pushes, and you will play kosumi away?
I don't like 76, because I don't think White has any serious threat on the central black group.
78 should be A as you say

Consider your moves from 68 to 80. Which of them has made points, and how many? My plan would have been to close Black in on top and extend down the left, fwiw.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #405 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:39 pm 
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A few comments:

:w8: If you do not feel confident playing a framework game, why play here? Just making an enclosure is fine, maybe even better. :)

:w10: Excellent, as we now know. ;)

:w18: Hane. :o According to Elf, the old joseki is good for White when there are two side star stones. Black ends up overconcentrated, I suppose. ;) OC, after that, you don't invade a side. Just play an enclosure.

:w38: In the old days I would have recommended enclosing the top left corner. Then if Black pincers the bottom left, play a counterpincer, probably at C-07, and after Black presses against the White corner stone, make a base at C-10 on the left side. That way White gets a double wing. :) I think that it is late enough in the opening to play that way today, as well.

Otherwise, how about a kick in the bottom left corner, followed by a one space extension on the 3d line? The problem with that is that Black gets to approach the top left corner.

:w56: Why not attach underneath?

:w60: I don't think that a would have been good. Your way looks right.

:w66: My feeling is the hane at E-15. It's not like you are walling off territory or anything. But maybe E-15 is too slow, as well.

:w68: Certainly playable, if not best. :)

:w70:, :w74: I am not thrilled with strengthening Black. Besides, Black might ignore the first peep and sacrifice one stone.

:w78: I would lay stake to the huge box on the left side. Manna from heaven.

:w82: Invites :b83:. You can reduce the right side without this play. Doing so might count as a leaning attack.

:w98: Before playing the slide on the bottom side, reducing the left side seems like a good idea. I would start with the shoulder blow, however.

:b99: Huh?

White 100: Thanks to :b99: you can stand with sente.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #406 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
Consider your moves from 68 to 80. Which of them has made points, and how many? My plan would have been to close Black in on top and extend down the left, fwiw.


One virtue of that plan is that it makes :w66: a good play. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #407 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:44 am 
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Thank you both!

:w8: Enclose is nice idea, right. I'll try it next time : ) My initial thought was approaching the bottom right, too ^^

:w18: Hane! Of course... Too much new found knowledge. Needs a bit to incorporate, I guess.

:w38: I actually thought about the kick here but I felt the left is more valuable and did not want to give Black a head start. Hm, abandon the corner for the moment and work the aji later... I also like that. I guess I'll take the shimari next time : )

:w56: Attach underneath, hm, I wonder what I had thought about this in the game or if I even thought about it... I like it now ^^

:w60: Yes, atari seems stronger. A is my usual inclination of backing down once because my opponent will surely self-destruct later on (aka 50%-moves ^^)

:w66: Hm, tough. I knew my move is slow but I think it was my initial conception that I had to cut Black apart that lead me to going all out here. E15 looks like better shape, yes. But maybe C11 would be more enterprising, seeing that the left is the largest open area?

:w68: Interesting, I'd thought this is my only move since H16 just gives away everything I mapped out for some very unclear center facing structure. Of course, as Bill points out, I can justify B16 with this. Still, if Black lives at the top worry-free, he has no weak groups on the board and can go all-out in reducing. Just in my head this seems like a hit-or-miss-strategy : D

Of course this means mistakes were made earlier and regarding the top, I feel F16 ( :w56: ) is partly to blame.

:w70: Yeah, I have no feeling for when to peep and when I shouldn't... So I guess the one-point-jump is okay?

:w98: I thought about the shoulder-play. Just didn't know what to do after that. It was not clear to me how I can attack the Black center group, let alone for profit. But maybe good things happen when you get some strength? ^^

:w100: I disliked the stand because I thought Black will play tiger-mouth (B11) in response. Of course I can easily cover at D10 then but my area on the top left will be hurt.

Okay, there is more to the position than that. Black also loses a bit when he does not connect up "properly"... complicated. Mistakes were made before : D

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #408 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:28 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Thank you both!

:w8: Enclose is nice idea, right. I'll try it next time : ) My initial thought was approaching the bottom right, too ^^


Some years ago John Fairbairn and I had a brief discussion on L19 about :w8: as a second approach against sanrensei. IIRC, it was about nirensei by White vs. sanrensei by Black. It is very likely playable here, too, OC. But with two possible enclosures for White, making one may trump a second approach. The reason is that they are not exactly miai. If White encloses one first and then Black approaches the other, White can reply to the approach. But if Black approaches first and then White encloses the other, Black can play against the lone White stone in the first corner.

Quote:
:w38: I actually thought about the kick here but I felt the left is more valuable and did not want to give Black a head start. Hm, abandon the corner for the moment and work the aji later... I also like that. I guess I'll take the shimari next time : )

:w56: Attach underneath, hm, I wonder what I had thought about this in the game or if I even thought about it... I like it now ^^


The underneath attachment is a bit inconsistent with White's previous extension on the top side. However, the bots don't seem to care much about such things, at least until later in the opening. They like staking out the corner, the 3-3 invasion, the underneath attachment, and the kick.

Quote:
:w66: Hm, tough. I knew my move is slow but I think it was my initial conception that I had to cut Black apart that lead me to going all out here. E15 looks like better shape, yes. But maybe C11 would be more enterprising, seeing that the left is the largest open area?

:w68: Interesting, I'd thought this is my only move since H16 just gives away everything I mapped out for some very unclear center facing structure. Of course, as Bill points out, I can justify B16 with this. Still, if Black lives at the top worry-free, he has no weak groups on the board and can go all-out in reducing. Just in my head this seems like a hit-or-miss-strategy : D


I think that Shaddy's plan against the Black top side invasion is a good one. The left side is now big, and Black's prospects on the top side are more limited, especially after White has strengthened himself in the top right. And for White to stake out the left side at our around C-11 seems like a good idea, too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #409 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:39 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Thank you both!

:w68: Interesting, I'd thought this is my only move since H16 just gives away everything I mapped out for some very unclear center facing structure. Of course, as Bill points out, I can justify B16 with this. Still, if Black lives at the top worry-free, he has no weak groups on the board and can go all-out in reducing. Just in my head this seems like a hit-or-miss-strategy : D

Of course this means mistakes were made earlier and regarding the top, I feel F16 ( :w56: ) is partly to blame.


You haven't mapped out very much at the top. As an exercise, you should sketch out the invasion you imagine and count the points you lose compared to what you get in the game. i would be surprised if it turned out to be larger than a moderately-sized endgame move.

also, you have a sente descent against the corner, so i'm not even sure Black has an easy life here.

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #410 Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:43 am 
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Here I wasn't satisfied with the result I read first and got the best answer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . O X X |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . O O . O . |
$$ . . O X X . . |
$$ . . O X . X O |
$$ . . O X O X . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


Here I was satisfied too soon : (
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . O X . .
$$ | . O O O O X . .
$$ | . O X X X X . .
$$ | X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #411 Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:45 am 
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This happens most of the time when I try to play a framework game : (



PS: The good times have past: I'm now back to retracing my old bad habits. Had an unusual game right after and instead of playing just calmly, taking big points, I invaded the first small area I found ^^ Then I tenukid twice from that group (not really getting profit from it) letting it get totally surrounded and probably (maybe) alive with two points. My opponent also played unreasonable but due to surrounding my invading group he had a nice framework. And we know how this will go for me... I had chances to fight in this game but instead of taking them, I just threatend them, so my opponent could defend timely (I got one invading stones of his, which later connected up, seperated and killed me in his framework).

T'was nice while it lasted ^^

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Post #412 Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:39 pm 
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"the game after"


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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #413 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:31 am 
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I actually went back and analysed my last three games with Leela Zero. Didn't get KataGo to work with Leela.

My framework game was easily won for White - according to LZ of course. But I now also made a count and it seems White was really ahead with Komi and something, I just had to defend my cutting points...

I was looking for abstract ideas to get a grip on how to play better in certain situations. So more understanding, less specific moves.

After I went through the following three commented games, I could take away the following (basic stuff actually...):
Opening:
1) Don't invade/reduce too early. Especially when there are open corners.
2) Think about which sides are big.
3) Approach from the side that works well with your own stones.
4) Before simply defending light stones (farther apart) with no threat of a follow-up: Tenuki - especially in the opening.

Middlegame:
1) Don't get attached to an area, where you have multiple stones but with large(r) gabs inbetween.
2) If no plan can be found to attack a group for profit - don't attack, just take points/big moves. (Don't make territory from a wall)
3) If you defend, two things to consider: Playing a light shape (which means large(r) moves and readily abandoning unimportant stones) and attaching.
4) Think about the threat your move poses and if that makes it sente.
5) Keep in mind important stones and areas and don't react to endgame-stuff in the middlegame.
6) In the middlegame the objective is to have healthy groups with potential, ie don't run into an attack by just playing big moves.
7) Mind cuts and try to defend them in sente!
8) Count!



So, now let's make a printout : )

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #414 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:30 am 
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Another very good best move problem (even has a comment of Bill Spight on goproblems.com ; )):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . X . .
$$ | . . X O X . O X . .
$$ | . . X O X O . X . .
$$ | . O O O O X X . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #415 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:07 pm 
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First game trying to follow the above mentioned pricinples. I already failed in making stable groups ^^

Though the highlights of the game were due to my missing fighting spirit, with which I explain why I didn't dive more deeply into attacking lines.



I'm pondering whether to make whole-board-problems from my own games and solve them via UliGo. But it's hard to really pinpoint the direction I want to go with this: Just best global move? Focussing on direction of play problems?

Needs some further thought.

Aside from my daily 20 goproblems.com-problems I had a "quick" run through Cho Hun-hyeon's Lectures on Go Techniques Volume 2 and 3, and Get Strong at Invading. A lot of fascinating stuff and a lot of middlegame patterns I don't really have internalised.

I'm now back to Get Strong at Attacking (self-declared weakest point of my game), with pen and paper to write down the problems I got wrong and start overlearning!

And I should play more... Hopefully tomorrow!

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Post #416 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:18 pm 
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Here I again failed the second time... and it's not that hard.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . O O X X |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . O X X . |
$$ . . O . O O X |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . O . X . . |
$$ . . . O . O . |
$$ . . . , O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . O . X X |
$$ . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


This one on the other hand is one of those: First time solved (understood), easy to sport the vital point again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O , . . Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O . Q Q X . .
$$ | . . . . . . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Post #417 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:31 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . O O X X |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . O X X . |
$$ . . O . O O X |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . O . X 4 5 |
$$ . . . O 2 O 3 |
$$ . . . , O X 1 |
$$ . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . O . X X |
$$ . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


This I guess is the main line. Make an eye and connect at the same time, with no ko possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 2 . 5 Q X , X .
$$ | . O . O 3 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


And from here, after white captures :b1:, black plays H1 and catches white in a shortage of liberties. Cool problems.

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Post #418 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 2 . 5 Q X , X .
$$ | . O . O 3 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]



What's your plan if white plays here?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O , . . Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O . Q Q X . .
$$ | . . . 1 2 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]

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Post #419 Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:04 am 
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Kirby wrote:

What's your plan if white plays here?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O , . . Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O . Q Q X . .
$$ | . . . 1 2 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


The plan is to cry. I definitely should have considered that response. New plan!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 3 . . Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O 2 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . 4 5 1 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


Now the whole corner only has 1 eye. White should take the stone to save the corner, but will lose an extra two points if white wants to save everything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 2 5 4 Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O 3 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


White can only take at C1 , then black wins the capturing race with H1.

White would live in sente if :w4: was played at :b5: , letting black connect.

I think I still suffer from a huge case of wishful reading. I need to develop the discipline to go back and consider white's best response with the same intensity that I considered black's first move.

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Post #420 Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:29 am 
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FinrodFelagund wrote:
New plan!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 3 . . Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O 2 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . 4 5 1 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


Now the whole corner only has 1 eye. White should take the stone to save the corner, but will lose an extra two points if white wants to save everything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O 2 5 4 Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O 3 Q Q X . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


White can only take at C1 , then black wins the capturing race with H1.

White would live in sente if :w4: was played at :b5: , letting black connect.

I think I still suffer from a huge case of wishful reading. I need to develop the discipline to go back and consider white's best response with the same intensity that I considered black's first move.


Putting yourself in your opponent's place is indeed important in a game. In fact, IMHO, you should do that before you think about your play. If it were your opponent's turn, where would they play? The saying is, The opponent's key point is my key point. How do you know the opponent's key point if you don't look at the board through their eyes?

But to solve a problem doing that is neither necessary nor sufficient. ;) It's not necessary because you only need to find one move for yourself when it's your turn, regardless of where your opponent might play, and it's not sufficient because when it's your opponent's turn, you need to have a good reply to each of their moves. It's not a question of psychology, but of technique.

For instance,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to capture the marked stones
$$ | . . , . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X X X X . . .
$$ | . O b c d Q X , X .
$$ | . O X O a Q Q X . .
$$ | . . e f 1 . Q . . .
$$ +---------------------[/go]


You have shown replies for a and b, but what about c - f?

Maybe some of these plays are trivially obvious. But to me b and f stand out because they are where Black played in response to a. c is a point where Black played in response to b. And after e Black can still make a mistake. :)

I don't mean that you need to read every possibly reply by your opponent at every turn, but you certainly need to be prepared for every one of them. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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