Posts: 6727 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
In case you are interested, I played the large knight's enclosure in my final British Championship game, and talked a bit about it (both opening ideas, like comparison with small knight and impact on the outside attachment (popular in AlphaGo game 5 opening), and middlegame invasions of it) in my review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI8Sdsie2QQ .
So it seems like I can sort of motivate black's choice based on being close enough to white to cramp white's enclosure, but far enough away that black can two-space jump in response to the pincer/split.
I haven't forgotten about this yet. #1 ranked Ke Jie has been in three games with ogeima in the last month or so. Two he played it as black, and one he played against it as white. Luckily, all three start from the same position. White has two star points, and black takes the 3-4 + ogeima.
I haven't really studied the avalanche, but as best I can tell the variation to white 26 is standard or close to it, and then black has several options:
My first instinct would be to favor the top side and try to build towards my enclosure, but Ke Jie chooses "b" here. Eventually the fight spills in the direction of the enclosure:
[go]$$Wcm46 Avalanche: the full-board joseki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . O X O X X X O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . X X O O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . O O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is an interesting and very complex game, but I have two more to show, so I will leave it here for now. Large avalanche into running battle across the board. Ke Jie wins with the ogeima opening.
To me makes intuitive sense, since white's avalanche is essentially influence pointing towards the lower right side. Breaking up that development seems natural. My kyu eyes would probably not pick out however. In retrospect it makes sense. If black slides, white will probably be happy to take a move on the side:
The two space jump is a good way to settle on the right. Settling quickly means white can't attack with the influence of the avalanche. In the game, white takes the narrowish estension, and black slides into the corner anyway.
It's a bit off topic for ogeima notes, but is one of those moves that I see in stronger players' games, but very rarely at my own level. In that position I probably would have taken the "simple" two-space jump instead of this second-line attack.
[go]$$Wcm46 Burning aji $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X 6 . X 7 O . . O . X X X X 9 . | $$ | . . 2 , . . 5 . . , . . . . O O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X . O . X . O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
It seems like the point of and is to get and in sente. I assume this is to help with the attack on the top-right group. But it uses up all (almost all?) aji for white in the corner, leaving black a solid 25 point (?) corner territory. So, my first question is, what do these moves threaten? What if white tries to save the aji in the corner?
[go]$$Wcm46 What if white attaches directly? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X . O . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . O O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X . O . X . O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Related to this, black could consider a different move after the attach on the outside. above seems to be a dual-purpose move, trying to kill the corner aji and protect black's top-side stone. A move like "a" below would make "b" gote for white. So why doesn't black play that way? It seems the corner must be too dangerous, but the reading is hard
This time Ke Jie is white, and Tang Weixing takes black. The game is from the Jinli Smartphone Cup. I think this is the same as "Chinese A League", but I'm not sure.
Tang Weixing plays our favorite fuseki, and Ke Jie also picks the easy avalanche:
This line seems to show that black still has room to invade even after white reinforces the bottom. From here the game becomes fighting, and eventually white invades the upper left, but loses the invading group, and Ke Jie loses the game by 3.5. Three wins for ogeima!
These three avalanche games, plus the one I looked at before, bring up a natural question: is it better for white to take the avalanche in this fuseki? Do pros think this is the "correct" play? Let's compare to the basic joseki:
here seems like a natural and good move. I think being only two spaces from the enclosure is actually much nicer in this case than the "normal" enclosure. For the normal enclosure this extension feels too small, but here it helps protect the corner, which has more aji in the ogeima. And of course threatens attacks on the top white group. White can choose the solid connect for less aji, at the cost of giving black more room to breathe:
I think black still probably wants "b" instead of "a", because white can follow "a" with "c". Or maybe black would rather take sente and approach the bottom here. Either way, I can at least understand pros being unsatisfied with these variations as white. Maybe that is what prompts the avalanche.
Realistically, if I play ogeima as black I would expect one of these beginner joseki from my kyu opponents, rather than the avalanche. But if they do play it, I will be ready. Unless they play the large avalanche, in which case I will likely misread something and lose the entire corner in a ball of fire.
So I was thinking about whether there are any pros who really like ogeima. It turns out there is a top pro who plays it a lot as black, one of the ones in the game I just posted, Tang Weixing 9p.
Five games starting with ogeima, one with keima. Two mini chinese, one high chinese, and one approach . One hoshi across ten games (in the high chinese).
So who is this guy? He's currently 23 years old, Chinese, ranked #22 in the world.
In December 2013 he went from unknown Chinese 3p to beating Lee Sedol in the Samsung final. In January 2014 he was ranked #14 in the world. His win was part of making 2013 the first year that Chinese players held all international titles.
Since then his rating hasn't really fallen, but stayed steady while other young stars caught up and passed him by. He made it to the finals of the Samsung Cup again in 2014, but lost to Kim Jiseok. In 2015 he lost in Semis to Shi Yue.
But in fact he is facing Park Junghwan in the Ing Cup final next week! Time to become a Tang Weixing fan!
Gogameguru has 3 commented games. One of them has ogeima, and I vaguely remember looking at it. I will replay it. An Younggil says "Tang is very strong in the second half of the game, especially when he's losing. He plays even better when he's behind."
Posts: 6727 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I first came across Tang Weixing when I was at BIBA in summer 2013 and we visited the 4th Asian Indoor and Martial Arts Games. I seem to recall he won the Men's individual (surprising Blackie, who expected Tan Xiao I think was the favourite to win), go4go has him beating Lee Donghoon 2p (now a rising star in Korea) in the semi-final but I can't find a final game. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/34561
Well, Tang Weixing took black the first game of the Ing Cup. He chose the orthodox fuseki instead of the ogeima, and lost unfortunately. He won the next game though, so hopefully he can pull the upset against Park Junghwan.
In his very next game, Park Junghwan played ogeima himself:
I think this distant approach for white is much more common in pro games than amateurs. I have played this fuseki as black many times, and I don't think I've ever had an opponent play this move against me. Given that pros also play the "normal" high approach in this position, I don't think you can call better. It's interesting to consider though.
The first time I ever heard that the distant approach was "correct" is the Kobayashi fuseki:
The idea being that provides good support if black chooses to pincer. White picks the distant approach to make a pincer worse.
In the above fuseki, Black does sometimes pincer the high approach, but often just attaches, as we saw in the previous post. A question for anyone who has an opinion: what do you think about the far approach for white in this fuseki? What do you think is the motivation? Do you like the move?
seems like natural fuseki development. caught me by surprise. I have seen pros play the shape jump at "a" before. This seems way above my level. What is white trying to accomplish? It seems to invite a split with a very loose formation. In times like these I tend to fast forward in the kifu and see if I can understand the intent from the final shape. I will put the next sequence in a hide tag, try to guess how black responds and what the shape looks like in the end.
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emeraldemon
makes intuitive sense, since white's avalanche is essentially influence pointing towards the lower right side. Breaking up that development seems natural.
however. In retrospect it makes sense. If black slides, white will probably be happy to take a move on the side:
is one of those moves that I see in stronger players' games, but very rarely at my own level. In that position I probably would have taken the "simple" two-space jump instead of this second-line attack.
and 
is to get 
and 
in sente. I assume this is to help with the attack on the top-right group.
above seems to be a dual-purpose move, trying to kill the corner aji and protect black's top-side stone. A move like "a" below would make "b" gote for white. So why doesn't black play that way? It seems the corner must be too dangerous, but the reading is hard 
here seems like a natural and good move. I think being only two spaces from the enclosure is actually much nicer in this case than the "normal" enclosure. For the normal enclosure this extension feels too small, but here it helps protect the corner, which has more aji in the ogeima. And of course 
. One hoshi across ten games (in the high chinese).
better.
provides good support if black chooses to pincer. White picks the distant approach to make a pincer worse.
seems like natural fuseki development. 
caught me by surprise. I have seen pros play the shape jump at "a" before. This 