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Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=9522 |
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Author: | moyoaji [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
So there is this book called Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go by Kageyama Toshiro 7-dan. Not sure if any of you guys have heard of it, but I thought it was pretty good so I figured I should review it. (Seriously, I don't get how no one else has made a review of this book here...) The book was originally translated into English in 1979 and was published by the Nihon Ki-in as "Amateur and Pro" because the focus of the book is on what separates professional play and amateur play. Kageyama says "What changed me from an amateur into a professional was getting a really firm grip on the fundamentals." So either name seems appropriate when describing this book. I have difficulty separating my review of this book from my experience of reading it, because it was an experience, so I will give both. If you want a complete picture of my opinions on this book, read both. If you just want to know what it is about and if you should buy it then just read the review. My Review: My Experience: TL;DR - This book is fantastic, enjoyable, and all-around a great read. It covers everything fundamental to the game from ladders to joseki to end-game. If you are at least SDK you should read this book. |
Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Lessons in the Fundamentals is a great book for the reasons you state and its emphasis on the importance of studying the fundamentals. However, your review, my two or three reviews of the book elsewhere and other reviews all fall into the trap of seeing only the positive aspects of the book before even realising that it also has shortcomings: 1) The book teaches much more the advice to study the fundamentals than it teaches the fundamentals themselves. Other sources, or much autodidactic study, are needed to learn many fundamentals missing in this book. 2) The book teaches only a tiny number / percentage of fundamentals, a sort of random selection, with which it explains what fundamentals are at all. 3) Many aspects and details are missing. E.g., the book gives the advice to capture in a net firmly, but it does not explain in detail what exactly makes a capture "firm". In summary, the book is great for giving the motivation of appreciating, studying and applying fundamentals, but the book is weak at actually teaching fundamentals. Read both this book for getting motivation and every other book actually explaining many fundamentals in detail. |
Author: | RBerenguel [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
I'm with Robert here... I like LitF a lot, I have read it like 5 times already. It's a great book, but what it gives is a good, warm and fuzzy feeling of go... But when stones are laid on the board it doesn't give as much a ROI as we feel when "just" reading it. But like any other go-motivator, it's great, and packs some good knowledge. If I wasn't in the middle of Positional Judgement, I'd give it another read just for the kicks! |
Author: | moyoaji [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Well, if the book gave a comprehensive overview of every topic it discusses the thing would have to come with its own library cart. ![]() Like I said in my experience section: It's like a guide to learning how to learn go - it teaches you what you need to know in order to be an effective student of the game. The biggest thing it tries to get you to do is read. "Read out this tesuji." "Read out this ladder." And that is something I was always so bad about. Who has time for reading when you can just guess that a move is good? But this book hammered the importance of reading into my head. And I have found a lot of the advice to be useful in games. Perhaps it is simply because I was never taught such things before, or because they didn't hit home hard enough. For example: In the life and death chapter Kageyama gives 2 steps for making life.
Step 2: Occupy a central eye-making point. It could be that I got a lot of value out of the book because I was that bad at the fundamentals of the game. I wasn't good at reading ladders. I was not that great at netting cutting stones. I was bad about pushing from behind. It's not that I'm an expert on any of these things yet, but I'm better about all of them. Finally, regularly messing up any one of these fundamentals can hold back your game immensely. Just knowing "Okay, I'm bad at recognizing good shape, I need to work on that" has value. I like being able to look at a large swath of basic principles to know which ones I need help with. |
Author: | DrStraw [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Maybe the reason that it has not been reviewed here is because it has been reviewed so many times elsewhere. I used to have a collections of well over 200 go books. When I put them up for sale six years ago I offered everything I had except for Invincible and LITFOG. That should tell you how much I value it. But, as RJ says, it is a motivational type of book, rather than a instructional type. |
Author: | karaklis [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
So you have to feel motivated by that book to like it. I have never liked its style and never felt motivated, so maybe that's the reason I don't like it. I have read it once at around 15k, and won two tournament games because I forced myself to read out ladders, but that's all. I reread it around 5k, because so many people liked it and said that they profited from it. However I didn't feel that I profited even a bit. The chapter I liked most was Kageyamas "master piece", a review of one of his best games ever. Edit: As Robert and Ruben have already stated, the emphasis is on studying the fundamentals. The books only gives some vague hints what "fundamentals" mean. Most probably it means much more than what the book outlines. I'm still struggling with finding out, what "fundamentals" actually mean, and once I have found it, I'll let you know (having found it out will probably mean to have broken through the wall that I had hit years ago). |
Author: | happysocks [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Thank you for providing such a thorough, thoughtful review. Even had a peak at the WDF and was intrigued, if I disappear suddenly... Anyway, really appreciate your thoughts around what level a player should be at to take on the book as well. RobertJasiek wrote: In summary, the book is great for giving the motivation of appreciating, studying and applying fundamentals, but the book is weak at actually teaching fundamentals. Read both this book for getting motivation and every other book actually explaining many fundamentals in detail. Could be wrong but it seems like I've seen comments like this about Kageyama' book before but not much mention of books "actually explaining many fundamentals in detail." Is it too expansive a subject to be treated sufficiently/tolerably in one book? If there are books that deal primarily and sufficiently in the meat of the topic as opposed to the motivation in on and around the subject (if such books exist) it would be super to have a few of the better one's listed for DDK, SDK and D levels. A search here and on Sensei's only brought up a couple books and no real discussion of the subject of where to most effectively be fed in the fundamentals of go. Not everyone will have the time, resources, inclination or motivation to read every book. |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
happysocks wrote: Is it too expansive a subject to be treated sufficiently/tolerably in one book? Yes. Even 10,000 books are not enough.
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Author: | wineandgolover [ Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Some odd comments here. Sure, this book will not teach you everything. But, it does a brilliant job starting to teach you how to think about go. Some things will make sense immediately ("Don't peep where you can cut.") Others will make more sense once you are a SDK, or even a dan ("The struggle to get ahead.") Just buy it and read it. Especially if you like chatty books, this is still the best English language go book. |
Author: | happysocks [ Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: happysocks wrote: Is it too expansive a subject to be treated sufficiently/tolerably in one book? Yes. Even 10,000 books are not enough.Part of the attraction isn't it. ![]() Btw Robert made a thread where some books dealing with fundamentals in a bit more depth have been advanced: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9591&p=155864#p155864 |
Author: | topazg [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
This is definitely the best book I have encountered in giving me a feel for what the fundamentals of Go are: not the ladder sequences and tesujis I might find in a game, but the attitude and spirit I need to approach the game with if a) I hope to get stronger, and b) I hope to get the most out of what I already know. There are a few really nice comments on individual techniques, and a few interesting examples, but the point it really thrusts home is the mindset of how to approach Go play and Go study, and the examples are designed to reinforce why that is, rather than offer a silver bullet to improvement. I think this is also possibly the reasons why it seems to be liked and disliked in equal measure... If I had only one Go book to keep out of my collection, it would also be this one. |
Author: | drmwc [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Good review - it's one of my favourite books. I've re-read it many times. Of course, as others have said, it's not comprehensive. However, it does give a very useful framework for reading other books, for example showing how to study joseki rather than being a joseki resource of itself. The appendix is brilliant. It shows that professionals are not too differ to us, just a lot stronger. I have lost my copy of the "Kage's secret chronicles of handicap go", by the same author. It's a shame I lost it, because it too is brilliant. I highly recommend it if you can find a copy. |
Author: | peti29 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
I may be wrong about this but I had feeling while reading the book as if Kageyama was saying: "I used to be an amateur, but now I am pro. And gee, do amateurs suck!" Which probably is true btw, but that doesn't motivate me at all. (Though it might be the right thing to motivate other people, still.) The best thing I profited from the book is "you got to read your ladders!". The worst thing is I started worrying that I might be one of those "permanent 6 kyus".... Edit: ah, and yes, all that talk about "fundamentals" without actually telling what they were. |
Author: | Shenoute [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
peti29 wrote: Edit: ah, and yes, all that talk about "fundamentals" without actually telling what they were. Well, you may want to read it again ![]() I don't have the book at hand but I remember some basic points are very clearly underlined, points that are precisely the ones I see missed over and over again by players my rank and below (myself included of course) : - connect your stones together instead of allowing them to be separated - it is no use counting points too early when stones are too far away one from the other - don't use a wall to make territory - don't peep where you can cut - hane at the head of two stones/don't push from behind ("stones go walking") - study the reason behind joseki moves, rote learning of joseki is useless (and can even be harmful) - Life&Death : widen your space to live, reduce to kill, try hane first instead of shooting at random "vital points" etc. I think the biggest reason this book is disliked by so many people is that it is too simple. It does not present any mind-blowing strategies nor does it teach wonderful 20-move tesuji sequences, so people read it once, think they have understood everything (which might be true) and that they mastered every bit of it (which is very unlikely). It is ok not to like this book (it is not my favorite go book either) but to say that it doesn't teach enough seems misguided to me. |
Author: | RBerenguel [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
peti29 wrote: I may be wrong about this but I had feeling while reading the book as if Kageyama was saying: "I used to be an amateur, but now I am pro. And gee, do amateurs suck!" Which probably is true btw, but that doesn't motivate me at all. (Though it might be the right thing to motivate other people, still.) The best thing I profited from the book is "you got to read your ladders!". The worst thing is I started worrying that I might be one of those "permanent 6 kyus".... Edit: ah, and yes, all that talk about "fundamentals" without actually telling what they were. For a long while I thought I'd be one of those permanent 6k (was one during the whole of 2012, took a break for more than half 2013.) And now, lo and behold, I seem to be a 3k-4k (permanent? Not sure yet.) |
Author: | peti29 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Shenoute wrote: Well, you may want to read it again ![]() I'll definitely read it again. Shenoute wrote: It is ok not to like this book (it is not my favorite go book either) but to say that it doesn't teach enough seems misguided to me. I think it is hard to learn from this book. It covers many areas, fundamental areas if you like. But (I don't want to say it doesn't teach - because this can also be called a form of teaching) it doesn't put it in front of you prepared. It gives you a treasure map "go, dig there and you'll find some gold". It can even be a better method, but I think I'm not dedicated enough to learn that way. |
Author: | Shenoute [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
Yes, you're right. The main points are a bit hidden by the small talk in each chapter. Actually, it could be a good idea to post a summary of the book, with the few key sentences of each chapter neatly organized. It may make the book more usable (don't know if this would be acceptable from the copyright point of view though). Another idea may be to post game commentaries focused entirely on this key concepts. I'll give a look at it and will post something if this seems feasable. |
Author: | ThePolo [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
This book is great! I had fun reading it and learned a lot while doing so. Kageyama has a good sense of humor and an easy going writing style. This is accompanied by his deep experiences giving lectures about the fundamentals. I believe, that the book helped me gain a different look at the game and even where to look for right move. One can approve greatly by understanding and reviewing the fundamentals. |
Author: | gowan [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
peti29 wrote: I may be wrong about this but I had feeling while reading the book as if Kageyama was saying: "I used to be an amateur, but now I am pro. And gee, do amateurs suck!" Which probably is true btw, but that doesn't motivate me at all. (Though it might be the right thing to motivate other people, still.) The best thing I profited from the book is "you got to read your ladders!". The worst thing is I started worrying that I might be one of those "permanent 6 kyus".... Edit: ah, and yes, all that talk about "fundamentals" without actually telling what they were. I don't think he is disrespectful to kyu-level players. I think he is urging people to improve. Everyone can improve, even pro title holders. Pros spend a lot of time studying, on their own and in study groups. Go Seigen said "The supreme enjoyment is to become one stone stronger" and he pointed out that this enjoyment is available to amateurs but not to him. Kageyama's remarks often seem to me to be like a sports coach speaking gruffly or even shouting to get his players to do well. I have met many pro players and not one of them showed disrespect to amateur players, certainly not to kyu-level players. From the perspective of a mid-dan pro all amateurs, both dan level and kyu level have so much room for improvement. I have occasionally noticed disrespect for kyu-level players coming from some amateur dan-level players, though. |
Author: | moyoaji [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Review of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" |
gowan wrote: I don't think he is disrespectful to kyu-level players. I think he is urging people to improve. Everyone can improve, even pro title holders. Pros spend a lot of time studying, on their own and in study groups. Go Seigen said "The supreme enjoyment is to become one stone stronger" and he pointed out that this enjoyment is available to amateurs but not to him. Kageyama's remarks often seem to me to be like a sports coach speaking gruffly or even shouting to get his players to do well. I have met many pro players and not one of them showed disrespect to amateur players, certainly not to kyu-level players. From the perspective of a mid-dan pro all amateurs, both dan level and kyu level have so much room for improvement. I have occasionally noticed disrespect for kyu-level players coming from some amateur dan-level players, though. I agree with this assessment of Kageyama as a coach. His book does not simply teach lessons, it demands that the player try to improve. I'm generally surprised by players who take his rants that seriously. Over and over again in his book he clearly states at times that he is joking. I see no reason to view some of his harsher comments as jokes while others he meant with absolute seriousness. The book is light-hearted as long as it is not read with a heavy heart. |
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