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Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5472		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  SpongeBob [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
The current graphics/screen layout - although very pretty - makes poor usage of a 16:9 screen format (standard format for laptops).

I would expect a Go board which covers all the available space from top to bottom so that I can do a fullscreen view on my browser and have a nice huge Go board - as huge as possible.

For me this would have top priority ... I am sure that priorities in kaya.gs development are very different, though. :-)

Is such a layout-redesign already on the to-do list? Or is everybody else fine with the current layout?
Author:  Nagilum [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
SpongeBob wrote:
The current graphics/screen layout - although very pretty - makes poor usage of a 16:9 screen format (standard format for laptops).

I would expect a Go board which covers all the available space from top to bottom so that I can do a fullscreen view on my browser and have a nice huge Go board - as huge as possible.

I already made a similar proposal in the feedback-section. You can vote for this idea. ;-)

SpongeBob wrote:
For me this would have top priority ... I am sure that priorities in kaya.gs development are very different, though. :-)

Is such a layout-redesign already on the to-do list? Or is everybody else fine with the current layout?

I think the current layout is suitable for an alpha version. But without a fullscreen-layout a release version of Kaya would not be a serious alternative for me to KGS. Indeed i think the layout issue is currently the greatest disadvantage in comparision to KGS.
Gabriel noted in the response that the layout will not be customizable, but resizable.
When it is possible to scale the header down to one pixel it may be ok. :D
Author:  Kaya.gs [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Kaya will have a total redesign. This one is an intermediate one between raw and what will be the final "groove" of it.

The scaling is a the smallest of the concerns, whats important is where to put all the new stuff, like betting points, tournament information, widgets like server clocks, tv shows, etc.

The new design will be the mark of opening up, most likely.
Author:  karaklis [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
A huge board would be truly cool and would make my weak eyes happy.

Is it planned that stuff like betting points, tournament information, widgets like server clocks, tv shows etc. can be toggled? For those who are not interested in the betting stuff it is probably more important to have a larger board...
Author:  Jedo [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Yeah, I hope a lot of this extra stuff can be toggled, otherwise the screen is going to get way too cluttered.
Author:  Charlie [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Oh wow. Are you trying to build a 1990s pile of web-junk or a modern online Go server?

If the latter, perhaps the game of Go and associated board should be given top priority? What need is there for videos, betting and tournament widgets?

All you need when playing Go is the board, the clock, the prisoners and the chat box. NOTHING else.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Charlie wrote:
Oh wow. Are you trying to build a 1990s pile of web-junk or a modern online Go server?

If the latter, perhaps the game of Go and associated board should be given top priority? What need is there for videos, betting and tournament widgets?

All you need when playing Go is the board, the clock, the prisoners and the chat box. NOTHING else.


Actually, I think the videos, tournaments and facilities (betting points have never been my cup of tea, but they do seem popular on the Asian servers). I think having features for the sake of looking well featured is a poor idea, but at the same time, something that offers increased interactivity, reviews, and organised competition I think would be a good "modern" feature for an online server to have.

Simply the board, clock, prisoners and chat is very 1990's to me ;)

However, flexible and well thought through layout and a customisable user interface I think is very important, and should take top priority.
Author:  Celebrir [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Charlie wrote:
Oh wow. Are you trying to build a 1990s pile of web-junk or a modern online Go server?

If the latter, perhaps the game of Go and associated board should be given top priority? What need is there for videos, betting and tournament widgets?

All you need when playing Go is the board, the clock, the prisoners and the chat box. NOTHING else.


It looks more modern for me to try to implement as many features as possible which increase the community and link different sides together (best example is facebook, whether you like it's policy or not, it's a great idea). Were you never annoyed that you have to switch windows if you want to observe a tournament on KGS and EuroGoTV ? Sure, you can resize windows, but that's not effective at all and as long as it's optional it's not bothering.
However, one point I have to disagree a lot: Tournament "widgets" are really important. Just compare DGS and OGS and you see how important organized tournaments are. Besides I got through a lot of trouble to organize tournaments at KGS and you really can feel how much people want to have such tournaments. A modern server has to be much more than board+clock+chat, because we have plenty of such servers. Sorry if I have bored you with this, but I just felt like it had to be said^^°

Apart from that you're maybe under the impression that the currently very stessful to play. That's not the case, it's just not optimal yet, but in my opinion it's good for the first Alpha design and resdesign (with our feedback like SpongeBob's) for later versions seems to be already planned.
Author:  karaklis [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Well, of course you cannot please everybody. Probably it is modern to implement as many features as possible, but nevertheless it should be possible to minimize unused/unwanted features. E.g. it would be much more pleasant for me to play on Wbaduk, if I could switch off these chicken (chicken are just good for barbecue) or that betting stuff. These "features" are really a putting me off and make me dislike playing on that server. That's why I asked whether it will be possible to toggle these features. It would be the best compromise that you can choose yourself which features you want to hide/show.

I agree that tournament "widgets" would be an important feature. Our last tournament on kaya.gs has shown that automated tournament features would be a great thing, all these things that you have organized manually (thanks again for that, Celebrir). However I think that showing the current parings and results would fit much better in an own window that can be opened from the current game that you are playing, and vice-versa that you can enter your match by clicking on the relative match on the pairings list. Some features are better integrated into the game windows whereas other features are better shown in a separate window.
Author:  Celebrir [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
I agree that organizing all this features in the windows and make it possible to deactivate them is important. But with the help of our inputs (I'm still as amazed how much time some people are putting into testing and suggesting as I'm sad to not have the time to do so) it will work out. However, we don't what is all in their mind and I think we only can discuss about the exact layout when we know all features. Until then we only can suggest think like that you want to have the option to see a big board, instead of saying something about the design in general.
Author:  oiseaux [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
I would just like to chime in to say that having a large board with a reduced interface is really important. I am a supporter of all the modern, interesting things Kaya is doing but at the end of the day, I go there to play Go, and I want my experience to be really just me, my opponent, the board and the clock.
Author:  Naizuri [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Charlie wrote:
Oh wow. Are you trying to build a 1990s pile of web-junk or a modern online Go server?

If the latter, perhaps the game of Go and associated board should be given top priority? What need is there for videos, betting and tournament widgets?

All you need when playing Go is the board, the clock, the prisoners and the chat box. NOTHING else.


Well, not really. If all you want is a good game, then IGS has existed for 30 years or so. Simplicity should be an option, but to compete with the other servers, kaya will need to bring plenty of things.
Author:  karaklis [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Naizuri wrote:
Well, not really. If all you want is a good game, then IGS has existed for 30 years or so. Simplicity should be an option, but to compete with the other servers, kaya will need to bring plenty of things.

Exactly. And probably even more: Customization for everybody's needs (well at least whatever is possible).
Author:  quantumf [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Naizuri wrote:
Charlie wrote:
Oh wow. Are you trying to build a 1990s pile of web-junk or a modern online Go server?

If the latter, perhaps the game of Go and associated board should be given top priority? What need is there for videos, betting and tournament widgets?

All you need when playing Go is the board, the clock, the prisoners and the chat box. NOTHING else.


Well, not really. If all you want is a good game, then IGS has existed for 30 years or so. Simplicity should be an option, but to compete with the other servers, kaya will need to bring plenty of things.


Quite. When it comes to playing a game of go, the few things Charlie mentioned are the priorities, although I could certainly envisage a few more (albeit controversial) things, e.g. interactive tools to give me a score or influence assessment, access to joseki dictionaries and so on.

However, I can enjoy a Go experience in many ways other than playing. Right now, for instance, I enjoy watching EurogoTV AND watching the actual game with kibitz on KGS. It would be much nicer if this was an integrated solution. I can also imagine much more interesting ways of spectating than simple video+relayed game, for example allowing audiences to vote/guess moves (perhaps even with prizes), or interactively assessing who is ahead. Betting is another controversial option. Note that Tygem does quite a few of these things already.

Other than spectating, there are other ways to enjoy Go. For instance, learning. This could take the form of improved teaching tools (although KGS is pretty good at this), both for one on one teaching, or group teaching. There are other ways I could learn, for instance, from tutorials or problem sets.

These and more are many of the ways that Kaya and others can compete with each other.
Author:  Saltie [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
A full screen board is a dream for me too and hopefully to get it with ease ,meaning I prefer a toggle mode as to resize by myself a window

Full screen that s from the edge of the screen no window border, headers...
Not a board with an edge too large.

It s a missing feature in all the existing servers if I don't miss one.
Author:  Kaya.gs [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Saltie wrote:
A full screen board is a dream for me too and hopefully to get it with ease ,meaning I prefer a toggle mode as to resize by myself a window

Full screen that s from the edge of the screen no window border, headers...
Not a board with an edge too large.

It s a missing feature in all the existing servers if I don't miss one.


The first thing with that "dream" is that boards are squared while monitors are wide. So while that looks cool, it leaves lots of space out.

Right now on F11, the only thing above the board are the clocks, settings and so. We will see if we want to achieve this that you say, but it depends on how much informatino fits in many places.
Author:  walpurgis [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
I was also recently thinking of this when quickly checking the Canadian Open broadcast on Kaya.

I noticed the full-screen option, and that's pretty nice and functional :tmbup: . But still, there's a lot of unused space that could still be used to make the board bigger. The first thing that comes to my mind would be to have the game details (player names etc. that's now on top of the board) moved on top of the chat area, similar to KGS. I see no downsides to at least having an option to choose between two layouts, apart from slightly more developing time used to make it possible. (But my assumption is that it shouldn't be an overwhelming task to accomplish ..?)
Author:  Kaya.gs [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
walpurgis wrote:
I was also recently thinking of this when quickly checking the Canadian Open broadcast on Kaya.

I noticed the full-screen option, and that's pretty nice and functional :tmbup: . But still, there's a lot of unused space that could still be used to make the board bigger. The first thing that comes to my mind would be to have the game details (player names etc. that's now on top of the board) moved on top of the chat area, similar to KGS. I see no downsides to at least having an option to choose between two layouts, apart from slightly more developing time used to make it possible. (But my assumption is that it shouldn't be an overwhelming task to accomplish ..?)


2 layouts is out of the questino. Its a lot mroe work and maintenance and it makes things more complicated.

The thing is what is the true idea behind a bigger board. After a decent size, its really about focus. If you take important data out of it and move it to the right, then you spend less time looking at the board, and the chat/other things must be shown. One idea we've been talking about is having the chat and other non-board features hide-able, so you actually only have the board and no other distractions. But then you need to know the clocks, connection status, and some basic board operations like pass/done handi.

The difference of board size between now with F11 and any other client is pretty much the same, it does not affect the experience a lot. But what you do have with kaya right now, is that you dont need to look at the right side(chat&stuff) to play.

The game page is not over, it will change. But i dont think having even a bigger board is a priority in that page's design.
Author:  Saltie [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Well I think that more as 95% of us have a screen smaller as a real life Goban.


I hate when names, window edges and so on reduce the size of my board.

In real life you don't look your clock your notes so often, what you look is where you play, your whole board and that s what should have the highest priority at least thats should be a essential feature.

I stayed away from new go servers because of some ridiculous size of the Goban.
sorry for people who invested their time in creating them.

And I know that the screen is not proportional with a board, of course, that s not what I am asking here.
Author:  ChradH [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Current screen layout - poor usage of available space
Kaya.gs wrote:
walpurgis wrote:
[...] The first thing that comes to my mind would be to have the game details (player names etc. that's now on top of the board) moved on top of the chat area, similar to KGS. [...]


2 layouts is out of the questino. Its a lot mroe work and maintenance and it makes things more complicated. [...]

:o Kaya is designed to have a modern web interface, doesn't it? So one could put board and details into separate <div/> tags and make their position adjustable by tweaking a few css attributes. Some users might even do it by themselves with browser plugins like Stylish.
Think css zen garden ;-)
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