L19 Hahn Tournament - Draw and Standings

topazg · **#21**

HermanHiddema wrote:

topazg wrote:

Congrats both, epic game!

That's 9.93 to ez4u, and 0.07 to daniel

It seems that the game was played with the wrong komi, 0.5 instead of 0 (as is in the rules for the tournament). So actually it was a 29 point victory, not 29.5, right? Which would mean 9.91 and 0.09 points to the players. Or does the komi as used stand, even if it is wrong?

Many thanks, good spot, I don't know how I missed that. I'll update to 9.91 and 0.09 if that's ok, Dave and Daniel?

mw42 · **#22**

Hello,

I just played my match versus hailthorn011 winning by resignation. It was my first >2 stone handicap game, and I think that shows. I also played some moves with the intent of securing a large victory (bluff moves that I expected he'd respond to but they were very, very bad). I don't think I will do that anymore. >< I also played way too fast! I was playing like I only had 10m main time!

Here is the match with post-game analysis included.

ez4u · **#23**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

...

I'm curious what people think of the position at move 40-- Has black already fallen behind a little? Did I make the right weak group on the bottom? Did I handle it ok? My own perception was that I must have screwed up the lower right joseki. By move 83 I thought I'd caught up and it was about even. But white made all the right choices and made more points on the top and side than I expected. Actually at move 99 I thought I had a very promising position, but I was out of time-- did white pull a fast one there or was I just optimistic?

Daniel, some of my thoughts during the game...

The extension at Q10 was a little short, more usual would be R9. More important, after my shimari you should have extended down the left side around C9. I think that Black would have had the more comfortable opening at that point. When you approached in the bottom right, I was looking for the chance to take sente in order to play on the left. The line you chose there looked typical to me, it just seemed to be in the wrong direction. After D10 I was happy with the situation. Perhaps I was a little too happy, I kept looking for the safe win, which let you get back into the game by being more aggressive than I was in the center. :scratch:

By the way, the exchange of N3 for O2 was a big help for White. It fixed any doubts about the eyes of my wall. It would have been better to jump out immediately at K5 (or attach at H4) and waited to see whether the opportunity would arise to play O3 followed by O2. I liked the timing of the B4, H7 combo. On the other hand F18 was not the right idea. Black should be looking for the opportunity to play G18 to spoil White's eye shape. Since White will attach at F18 to gain sente, Black should not play anything right away. Rather Black wants to use the threat of G18 to escape/make shape with the stones on the right. It is not reasonable to expect to capture the White stones around J17 but it is certainly possible to force them to make eyes at the top while Black plays in the center. Nevertheless, by the time you played D8, I was not confident that I could win. I was fishing in the upper left, trying to manufacture some chances. When I cut at B15, I think you should have considered playing atari at C13. I have no choice but to answer at D14 but after I cut at B13 later, the ladder does not work for White - the D10 stone is one space off!

ez4u · **#24**

topazg wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

topazg wrote:

Congrats both, epic game!

That's 9.93 to ez4u, and 0.07 to daniel

It seems that the game was played with the wrong komi, 0.5 instead of 0 (as is in the rules for the tournament). So actually it was a 29 point victory, not 29.5, right? Which would mean 9.91 and 0.09 points to the players. Or does the komi as used stand, even if it is wrong?

Many thanks, good spot, I don't know how I missed that. I'll update to 9.91 and 0.09 if that's ok, Dave and Daniel?

No problem, I expected it to count as 29 points.

hailthorn011 · **#25**

mw42 wrote:

Hello,

I just played my match versus hailthorn011 winning by resignation. It was my first >2 stone handicap game, and I think that shows. I also played some moves with the intent of securing a large victory (bluff moves that I expected he'd respond to but they were very, very bad). I don't think I will do that anymore. >< I also played way too fast! I was playing like I only had 10m main time!

Here is the match with post-game analysis included.

It was a great game. But I think if you had more experience with handicap games like that, I'd have been destroyed well before middle game. Either way, it was really fun.

daniel_the_smith · **#26**

topazg wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

topazg wrote:

Congrats both, epic game!

That's 9.93 to ez4u, and 0.07 to daniel

It seems that the game was played with the wrong komi, 0.5 instead of 0 (as is in the rules for the tournament). So actually it was a 29 point victory, not 29.5, right? Which would mean 9.91 and 0.09 points to the players. Or does the komi as used stand, even if it is wrong?

Many thanks, good spot, I don't know how I missed that. I'll update to 9.91 and 0.09 if that's ok, Dave and Daniel?

Oops, my fault, I remembered reading 0 but thought "surely that should be .5", hehe. Thanks, Herman-- you never know, that .02 points might come in handy

ez4u wrote:

Daniel, some of my thoughts during the game...

The extension at Q10 was a little short, more usual would be R9. More important, after my shimari you should have extended down the left side around C9. I think that Black would have had the more comfortable opening at that point. When you approached in the bottom right, I was looking for the chance to take sente in order to play on the left. The line you chose there looked typical to me, it just seemed to be in the wrong direction. After D10 I was happy with the situation. Perhaps I was a little too happy, I kept looking for the safe win, which let you get back into the game by being more aggressive than I was in the center. :scratch:

By the way, the exchange of N3 for O2 was a big help for White. It fixed any doubts about the eyes of my wall. It would have been better to jump out immediately at K5 (or attach at H4) and waited to see whether the opportunity would arise to play O3 followed by O2. I liked the timing of the B4, H7 combo. On the other hand F18 was not the right idea. Black should be looking for the opportunity to play G18 to spoil White's eye shape. Since White will attach at F18 to gain sente, Black should not play anything right away. Rather Black wants to use the threat of G18 to escape/make shape with the stones on the right. It is not reasonable to expect to capture the White stones around J17 but it is certainly possible to force them to make eyes at the top while Black plays in the center. Nevertheless, by the time you played D8, I was not confident that I could win. I was fishing in the upper left, trying to manufacture some chances. When I cut at B15, I think you should have considered playing atari at C13. I have no choice but to answer at D14 but after I cut at B13 later, the ladder does not work for White - the D10 stone is one space off!

Thanks for the comments! I thought I could get R8 in sente, but worse I was thinking the top was the big side :oops:

. O2 surprised me during the game, I didn't figure out that it was about eyes until we'd played a few more moves. I knew f18 was wrong the instant I played it, and b16 was due to insufficient reading time to assuage my irrational fears about the corner. That would have been a good place to be maximally aggressive! Oh well. In general, it was better than most of the games I've played recently, so I was happy. Thanks again!

daniel_the_smith · **#27**

hailthorn011 wrote:

It was a great game. But I think if you had more experience with handicap games like that, I'd have been destroyed well before middle game. Either way, it was really fun.

BTW, C15 might be a mistake, but D18 is what made it a disaster of epic proportions. If you just connect at D15 you've lost a couple points.

P3 is bad without a stone around K4.

Phelan · **#28**

Erm. I never signed up for this tourney. :S

If you get a replacement, i'll drop out. If not, I'll only be able to play after this monday.

topazg · **#29**

Phelan wrote:

Erm. I never signed up for this tourney. :S

If you get a replacement, i'll drop out. If not, I'll only be able to play after this monday.

Many apologies, that's entirely my fault, I have no idea how that happened. Your spot was supposed to be karaklis :S

I've updated the standings

Tofu · **#30**

I just played Phillip18. Tofu won by 54.5 points

phillip1882 · **#31**

yeah i knew he had won but didn't realize the margin was by so much well done tofu :-)

mw42 · **#32**

I have a game open in the L19 room on KGS for anyone in group D.

cyclops · **#33**

Today I registered on KGS as mokum. Long time ago I had an account ( around 7 k ) but it didn't exist anymore. Cyclops was already taken as username. Also I joined the L19x19 room. I like to play at daytime ( GMT ). So please send me a PM in L19x19.

phillip1882 · **#34**

white won by 12 points if komi is zero.

Tofu · **#35**

Tofu +21 over Shaddy.

topazg · **#36**

Great, thanks, I've updated the table with all the results so far

I'm thinking in practice Herman scoring might be a bit too logrithmic - 12 point wins are worth 8.7 points, and 31 point wins worth 10.00 points. I might try something more linear-ish if we do another one.

On that note, we've currently completely 5 out of 40 games for this month ... just sayin'

cyclops · **#37**

topazg wrote:

On that note, we've currently completely 5 out of 40 games for this month ... just sayin'

In Hahn tournaments the playing frequecy grows antilogaritmically

cyclops · **#38**

topazg wrote:

I'm thinking in practice Herman scoring might be a bit too logrithmic - 12 point wins are worth 8.7 points, and 31 point wins worth 10.00 points. I might try something more linear-ish if we do another one.

That is why I proposed initially perfect linear-ish. But as a compromise consider the arcsinh function. I like it because it is antisymmetrical. Here 6*arcsinh(x/6)

HermanHiddema · **#39**

topazg wrote:

Great, thanks, I've updated the table with all the results so far

I'm thinking in practice Herman scoring might be a bit too logrithmic - 12 point wins are worth 8.7 points, and 31 point wins worth 10.00 points. I might try something more linear-ish if we do another one.

I agree, I think the system is more suitable for significantly stronger players than are currently participating. It is suitable only for those games where the variance of scores is low, where 31 points is a very extreme score. At pro level, for example, 50% of games are decided by 10 points or less.

topazg · **#40**

HermanHiddema wrote:

topazg wrote:

Great, thanks, I've updated the table with all the results so far

I'm thinking in practice Herman scoring might be a bit too logrithmic - 12 point wins are worth 8.7 points, and 31 point wins worth 10.00 points. I might try something more linear-ish if we do another one.

I agree, I think the system is more suitable for significantly stronger players than are currently participating. It is suitable only for those games where the variance of scores is low, where 31 points is a very extreme score. At pro level, for example, 50% of games are decided by 10 points or less.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

@Cyclops, that's a really interesting proposal, thanks. I'll probably model what the scores would have been under your system at the end and see if it actually makes practical difference

L19 Hahn Tournament - Draw and Standings

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