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Game 4 http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=10220 |
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Author: | logan [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:21 am ] | ||
Post subject: | Game 4 | ||
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Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
This game seems unusually dull for these players with yose starting around move 80. Was black's lower right corner too big and he just made a simple game to keep the advantage? m15 ended up looking silly with n14; seems something went wrong there. |
Author: | lichigo [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
The move 76 was better in F4 i think. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
For me the game is already over by move 27. Black is connected all over, with good territorial prospects and White's thickness is nullified at the bottom. Next, 28 is uninspired and 29 is the most natural move. By 75 the overconcentration of white stones at the bottom right is painful. Who am I to judge, of course, but it looks like Lee was in bad shape. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Yeah, the wall being gote giving black the chance to defend at j4 seems sad. I wonder if Lee had seen Gu's previous game just a week ago, which featured the same opening up to the q10 pincer and which Gu lost. I wonder why he didn't choose this variation. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/41636 |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:10 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Well, there you go. I just read the analysis at gogameguru and it seems I haven't understand the game at all. Apparently the result is even and White even leaps ahead in the early middle game. http://gogameguru.com/gu-li-vs-lee-sedo ... go-game-4/ |
Author: | SmoothOper [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Uberdude wrote: This game seems unusually dull for these players with yose starting around move 80. Was black's lower right corner too big and he just made a simple game to keep the advantage? m15 ended up looking silly with n14; seems something went wrong there. I thought the territory oriented games 3 and 4 were interesting, though neither player is known for this style. It seems to me that Lee Sidol isn't as strong at positional judgement as Gu Li. |
Author: | mhlepore [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 10 games match Lee Sedol vs Gu Li |
Just reviewed the sgf of Game 4 - was anyone else surprised by move 82? I know the proverb "urgent before big" but this seemed quite slow. Unless he thought he was winning and just wanted to wrap the game up, but seems too early for that. [admin] This post was moved from the Lee Sedol vs Gu Li thread -JB [/admin] |
Author: | Pippen [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Move 8 was suspect for me. It begged to get under pressure by a pincer and thus to give Black a chance to fight and to build up influence or territory or to abandon later for sente. A split would have kept Black flat overall while making some base and points. |
Author: | Pippen [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 10 games match Lee Sedol vs Gu Li |
mhlepore wrote: Just reviewed the sgf of Game 4 - was anyone else surprised by move 82? I know the proverb "urgent before big" but this seemed quite slow. Unless he thought he was winning and just wanted to wrap the game up, but seems too early for that. Yes, usually a kosumi move like 82 in the middle of the game says: I calculated and affirmed that I lead and now I will make the game safer with this move. And according to commentators White was leading indeed at this point. I think Sedol was calculating too optimistically. It's like if you are a soccer coach and you lead with 1-0 in minute 60 and you choose to substitute for a defender. That's too early and it's questionable it is a good decision at all. Because those moves almost always go along with a more passive/defending attitude and that's poison if your lead is slim and therefore your opponent is even more motivated 'n' aggressive-styled (because he knows he has win in reach). [admin] This post was moved from the Lee Sedol vs Gu Li thread -JB [/admin] |
Author: | oren [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Pippen wrote: Move 8 was suspect for me. It begged to get under pressure by a pincer and thus to give Black a chance to fight and to build up influence or territory or to abandon later for sente. A split would have kept Black flat overall while making some base and points. Move 8 isn't uncommon in pro games. Move 10 was a new move though. The comment from the pros late in middle game to early endgame is that both players were playing as if they had the lead. |
Author: | emeraldemon [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Can someone explain ![]() |
Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
emeraldemon wrote: Can someone explain ![]() It is a clever way of capturing P7. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Knotwilg wrote: For me the game is already over by move 27. Black is connected all over, with good territorial prospects and White's thickness is nullified at the bottom. Next, 28 is uninspired and 29 is the most natural move. By 75 the overconcentration of white stones at the bottom right is painful. Who am I to judge, of course, but it looks like Lee was in bad shape. Yeah, as people know, I like thickness, but my impression, too, is that Black came out better in the bottom right. |
Author: | uPWarrior [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Knotwilg, Bill, but do you think white is already ahead by move 81? If so, what went wrong? Is it that F14 and F12 are significantly worse than D14 and D12? |
Author: | Splatted [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: emeraldemon wrote: Can someone explain ![]() It is a clever way of capturing P7. To follow up on this a little bit since I spent a while mulling over the same question. ![]() ![]() ![]() I also wondered why black didn't simply connect at R6 for ![]() |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
upWarrior: I'm awaiting the review at gogameguru. In the preliminary analysis, An Younggil finds the result to be even. That goes to show my positional judgment is worthless. |
Author: | oca [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Splatted wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: emeraldemon wrote: Can someone explain ![]() It is a clever way of capturing P7. To follow up on this a little bit since I spent a while mulling over the same question. ![]() ![]() ![]() I also wondered why black didn't simply connect at R6 for ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
Re move 20: black isn't forced to atari and let white capture the cutting stone: he could defend and fight but you lose quite a lot of points initially for a less certain profit from the fight: Probably 4 is the shape, but if white has to answer 5 at 6 then black can come back to answer at 7. White a is sente here which means black's corner is very small and it helps the outside group in the fight. It seems white needs to do it before 6 in fact otherwsise black can hane there and cut and 2 stone squeeze. Difficult fight... |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Game 4 |
uPWarrior wrote: Knotwilg, Bill, but do you think white is already ahead by move 81? If so, what went wrong? Is it that F14 and F12 are significantly worse than D14 and D12? Caveats: First, I do not think that the published methods of positional evaluation are accurate, and I suppose that they form the basis for professional judgement, even if they do not capture all of it. For one thing, if those methods were reasonably accurate, computer programs could have used them as a basis for much better evaluation functions than they had in the pre-Monte Carlo era. Second, in the published methods that I have seen, pros subtract full komi from Black's score. But they should not do that early in the game, only subtracting full komi by the end of the game. I do not know actual pro practice. Third, in the published methods that I have seen, pros do not make allowance for whose turn it is. One exception seems to be O Meien, IIRC. OK. By move 27, I think that Black has gained around 6-7 points. I actually think that Black maintains a lead throughout the game, despite losing some ground in the top right, up to ![]() ![]() ![]() OTOH, ![]() ![]() |
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