Lock!



EDIT: Note that I'm a speech fan, so I hate censorship. The best outcome here, I think, is for everyone to let this thread die voluntarily (or carry on the conversation somewhere that doesn't affect the forums).

Korea is allowed to have grumpy old men.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Strike 2!!

Ok, analogies aside, some of these comments are veering towards personal attacks against forum members, and this is slowly heading towards thread lockage. It's clearly not about Janice Kim anymore, which is ok in principle, and even though I find the expressed views on "purity or garbage" unpleasant, I actually respect the honesty shown here by magicwand.

He must know full well that his views will be largely shunned, and still presents it as an example of how some people think, with a guess as to how it is thought and why. That actually takes some level of courage, especially when he is an active participant in this forum and enjoys his time here.

The first step to understanding people is hear what they think, and why they think it. If you feel that their views are abhorrent, the next is presenting reasoning for an alternative point of view, but that stage is not really designed for a discussion forum, because then it becomes an "us vs them" situation.

I know most people on here would be unimpressed with magicwand's views, and so does he, however, he's shared them, apologised for offense, and moved on. I suggest we all do the same - if there's still good mileage in the debate, let it go on, if there isn't, let the thread die, but keep it away from being personal please.

I have some more perspective from my wife. First, she thinks that the example you gave is not exactly the same as someone being garbage.

Second, she said that, more than being liberal, she may have some perspective from being a teacher. She has taught different students and they have different talents - Korean is one of them.

She said that, if the situation were changed - if a Korean lived in America, it wouldn't feel good to be called "garbage" or made fun of because their English is poor.

She said it's much more important to focus on culture. A lot of Korean people think that Yuna Kim is cool. This type of thing can make Koreans living abroad proud to be Korean, and want to study Korean more.

So she thinks that, more than forcing the Korean language to kids living abroad and making fun of them, a better approach is to encourage Korean culture to, for example, Korean-Americans. This can have the effect of making kids proud of their heritage, and really want to learn the language as a side effect.

She says she agrees that many Koreans may not view non-Korean speakers as Korean... But she thinks that calling them garbage is not correct. In her own case, she likes to allow the definition of "who is Korean" to the individual, but can see how some Koreans may not.

Nobody likes to be called garbage. If anything, she says, one can strongly encourage Koreans abroad to embrace their heritage and language. But if they do not, they are still quality human beings.

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be immersed

This is me speaking, not my wife:
I agree mostly, topazg, but calling people "garbage" is also, by definition, a form of namecalling (there may be individuals in such a position on this forum, for example).

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be immersed

But then wouldn't a better approach be to try to teach them to speak (better) korean.
Wouldn't it be better to try to spread the culture by admitting more people in and teaching them the ways of it?

Instead, from what Magiwand says, many Koreans have a very derogatory opinions about non-purebloods or non-fluent-korean-speakers. This usually translates in looking down upon others, and is often felt by them. Such people rather than having an incentive to learn more feel ostracized and repelled. Taking into account how modern societies interact (and intermarry) - the group of 'pure' Koreans will get smaller and smaller... Until finally you end up with small group of core fundamentalist zealots hating everybody who is not 'them'. Magicwand's words, if true, show that the Korean society is on the way to do just that.

If the same can be said for China and Japan - I feel really sorry for these three societies.
And for all others who share similar views. Wasn't that part of the ideology fueling Nazi Germany? We are the purebloods and everybody else is garbage?

And another thing:
How can a Korean, for example, who lives in America expect to be treated equally with the people born and raised here when he himself treats people in his own country with such disdain and disrespect? Should we call such people 'garbage' because their English is not fluent enough? Should we all think of all the immigrants or mixed-heritage folks as 'garbage'? Why shouldn't we if this is how they think themselves?

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PS.
There is so much talk about racism and discrimination, but its usually in the context of white people discriminating against the non-white. It was always my conviction that these non-white societies which often scream so loudly about how bad the white people are - they are themselves guilty of the same thing within their own ranks. The above issue clearly shows that. People of any color and any culture are ready to discriminate against anybody who is 'different' or 'non-conforming' or even for silly reasons like 'non-pureblood' and BS like that.

And it can't really be stopped until it is stopped in all its forms and within all cultures.

Just my 2c before the thread locks itself out of shame.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Well, we proved Godwin's law... I think we're done here now...

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

One of the points I want to make is that I don't think that said opinions are shared as much by younger Koreans. I don't have a ton of datapoints, but I do have some.

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be immersed

Younger Koreans living in Korea?

My wife lived in Korea until the latter part of 2007 (and we still visit during summers), and has several friends that still live in Korea... So, yes.

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be immersed

Actually, I wasn't referring to yours, which was relatively ambiguous in that it could be aimed towards anyone (or lots of people)

apple

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

And my wife is always calling our daughter "pumpkin".... Now I'm wondering what deep-seated, unconscious bias is bringing this on!

My partner's father was Chinese (actually, Mauritian) and her mother is British. I just told her about the banana nickname, since she doesn't know much Chinese, and she laughed and asked, "Are you calling me a fruit?".

Although not to do with language, the British Queen is still often described as German despite more than (?) 150 years of generations being born in England. Her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh, is still routinely referred to by some people as The Greek.

So I don't think this groupism is a problem that is going to be overcome quickly. After all, it's not just about race or nationality. For some, religion or which part of the country you come from is the defining element. We have a tv programme here in which celebs trace their ancestry. One family was devastated to learn it was not purely Protestant. Their first ancestor in England had come over as an Irish Catholic but changed his affiliation just to get a job. Other celebs have been disappointed to learn they came from a different part of the country. (Conversely, several have celebrated the discovery that they have exotic elements of foreign ancestry, such as Anglo-Indian or Irish - but whether that is just celeb yukkiness is hard to tell, though if we hear an Oscars speech beginning "I want to thank my great-great-great-great aunt twice removed", we'll know where that came from).

Maybe it's not actually a problem. Maybe it's normal. People everywhere seem to feel an almost biological need to form into groups which compete for territory, food, status, etc. Beyond these goals, groups may not have any need to be rational. And, in a sense, groupism might even be part of the attraction of go.

I wouldn't be suprised if many cultures that value tradition have similar terms for people who don't. I went to high school in eastern Montana with a lot of Native Americans, and they had a similar term for Native Americans who didn't observe the traditions, "apple Indian." (I.e., red out the outside and white on the inside.)

These terms are a bit derogatory/discriminatory but the basis of the discrimination is attitude and lifestyle, not race/gender/sex/religion, and so I don't think it is quite so pernicious. Most of us discriminate based on attitude and lifestyle to some extent.

I hope you didn't quite say what you meant to, Bantari, because there's a big difference between screaming about white racism, and thinking white people are bad. I don't think this is what you're saying, but this is the kind of logic that makes people think that there will never be anything but one group cheating another. When people think that way, they become a [White/Black/etc] supremacist, but say they're just defending their own group against whoever is threatening them.

Still, racism is a ubiquitous problem, something that every group exhibits. But it's also something to be overcome wherever it appears, even if its targets aren't themselves angels.

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Occupy Babel!

You are correct.

My point was that while you usually see white people accused of racism and/or discriminating against other cultures, these very cultures which raise their voices often are guilty of the same behavior within their ranks. I have seen it many times, and I think it is natural, we are all same people with the same weaknesses and strength. It is natural and the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can overcome the problem in all cultures. If we fail to recognize that, we are just hypocrites.

I used the word 'bad' as a synonym of being the ones exhibiting racist and discriminatory behavior since that was the topic of that piece of text. I apologize for not making myself more clear.



Agreed.

However, I find it unsatisfactory when I see the very people who raise their voices against discrimination turning around and condoning such behavior within their own walls. I think that any cleaning should start from your own house before you start bugging the neighbors. Its ok to stand up against racism and discrimination, but do it in all forms and in all cultures, this is all I am trying to say.

I recognize that this is a very complex problem and that the views above are slightly more simplistic than my personal thoughts on that subject. But this is only a side-line to this whole conversation and not a place for me to write about it at greater length.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!