How much do you have to like something to like it.

Splatted · #1

This thread is to avoid further de-railing of MJK's study journal. It's about whether or not excessive liking de-values the like button. :grumpy:

Bantari wrote:

Bonobo wrote:

Yes, I may like many ppl, or, to be exact: I may like many of their posts, but I do distinguish. Nevertheless sometimes it happens that I “like” several posts in a row, for me it’s like saying “thanks for being friendly/supportive/informative”. Sometimes just for being funny.

True, but by giving it too much, by showing too little discrimination, you are devaluing the meaning of the 'like' functionality for everybody.

Consider:
If every other person got a gold medal, what would the value of gold medal be?
Or from reality: if every moron football player scoring an extra point is called a 'hero', how do the people who actually deserve this description feel? What is the value of calling somebody a 'hero' if you use the term for the guy brining hot coffee for the whole office in the morning, just because you happen to like hot coffee? What does it say about the meaning of the word 'hero'?

The bottom line:
Something like the 'Like' functionality has more value when you apply stricter guidelines of when you use it. If people just 'like' everything they consider slightly funny, or whatever - half the posts or more will get the 'like' label, and nobody will pay any attention to what is 'liked' and what is not. And 'Like' will become meaningless.

Well... you do what you do, no problem, I just think that this is what the guy meant. At least - this is how I have read it.

Bonobo wrote:

Pls forgive me, Robert, this will be my last [OT] deviation (at least in this direction ;-)

)

Bantari wrote:

[..] but by giving it too much, by showing too little discrimination[..]

I accept that it may be “too much” for your taste. For me, it’s just “more than usual” ;-)

Quote:

If every other person got a gold medal, what would the value of gold medal be?

This is not about Olympic collecting of “likes”. This is NOT about competing for the “likes” of people.

I’d perhaps compare it to … adding some neurotransmitters to a nervous system :-D

many things will then be raised above the perception threshold. And don’t forget: there still are more posts where I do NOT click “like”. So … I’m perhaps just adding my own “layer” of “likes” on this landscape.

BTW I also click “like” for post where forum newbies introduce themselves—because 1) it’s a nice thing to say “hi” and to introduce oneself, and because 2) so they immediately see how they can give a quick positive feedback for a post.

For any deeper discussion of this we should move into another thread.

Thanks, Tom

Bantari wrote:

Splatted wrote:

I have to say I'm with Wineandgolover on this one

Consider:

What if everyone thanked you every time you did something for them? Being thanked would lose all... actually that would be pretty nice.

I understand your point. But I disagree.

There are cultures out there which stress excessive politeness. People say 'thank you' and 'please' all the time... is it nice? I don't know. How do I tell when somebody is really grateful and when he simply follows convention? So in such cases - other indicators are needed... a deeper bow, a warmer smile... and then *this* becomes what makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, what makes you feel appreciated. Somebody saying 'thank you' for everything you do becomes meaningless or even a nuisance.

Same here. I think that the 'Like' functionality is there to denote posts which are somehow 'special' to you... and then it means something. If every other post is marked as 'special', then what is special and what is ordinary? The meaning and value gets diluted.

Bottom line:
If we all did 'Like' every other posts we run across, for whatever reason, each post would have been liked by 50 people or so. And then I ask you - would anybody care if a post was 'Liked' or not? It would be meaningless. Right now, only one person is so generous, and so it is no big deal. In theory, however, if you do not place strict and narrow guidelines on how you evaluate things, your evaluation becomes less meaningful.

Praise is a gift not to be withheld, but not to be given lightly neither.
That's all I am saying.

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:

...
Bottom line:
If we all did 'Like' every other posts we run across, for whatever reason, each post would have been liked by 50 people or so. And then I ask you - would anybody care if a post was 'Liked' or not? It would be meaningless. ...

My take:

1.) When you get a "like", even if it's from someone that gives out likes freely, there's at least an indication that they didn't hate what you had to write.

2.) If you care about your "like count", then I see Bantari's point in that the number of likes you have loses its value (if it had any to begin with).

3.) I think there's another dimension, and that is who gives you a like. Getting a like from a like-happy user does show that they agreed with your post, but maybe comes to become accepted as normal. Getting a like from someone who usually hates your guts seems to indicate, "Well, this guy usually hates what I have to say, but we seem to agree on this front."

Regarding the last point, I feel that there are cliques (to a mild degree) on the forum, so it's often common that person X says something, and persons A, B, and C, who usually like what person X has to say. As is usually the case with arguments on the forum, maybe person Y disagrees with person X, and persons D, E, and F, who usually like what person Y has to say commonly like Y's points.

After endless arguments on the forum, this comes to be expected, and you can say, "Oh, X posted. Of course A, B, and C like what X has to say.", and you don't think much of it. But what's significant is when you see D and E like what X has to say, and then you can think, "Hm. That's odd."

---

Aside from likes, I feel the same phenomenon happens in the many arguments that happen around the forum. X makes an argument, A, B, and C chime in to express their agreement. Y counters, along with his cronies D, E, and F.

After awhile it all starts to lose its significance... :-)

I'll post my reply seperately.

Splatted · #2

Bantari wrote:

Splatted wrote:

[

I have to say I'm with Wineandgolover on this one

Consider:

What if everyone thanked you every time you did something for them? Being thanked would lose all... actually that would be pretty nice.

I understand your point. But I disagree.

There are cultures out there which stress excessive politeness. People say 'thank you' and 'please' all the time... is it nice? I don't know. How do I tell when somebody is really grateful and when he simply follows convention? So in such cases - other indicators are needed... a deeper bow, a warmer smile... and then *this* becomes what makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, what makes you feel appreciated. Somebody saying 'thank you' for everything you do becomes meaningless or even a nuisance.

I actually prefer a going through the motions thanks to blatant snubbing, but that's not really the point since being free with the like button is not about obligation*. If a trigger happy liker goes through a thread liking every post it's because they genuinely like every post, not because they feel that all posts need to be liked.

* Obviously the situation where someone asks for help and then likes all the attempts to help is exactly like what you described.

Bantari wrote:

Same here. I think that the 'Like' functionality is there to denote posts which are somehow 'special' to you... and then it means something. If every other post is marked as 'special', then what is special and what is ordinary? The meaning and value gets diluted.

I guess the issue here is which distinction you think is the most significant: Like vs Didn't Like, or Like vs Really Like. I think the first, but I guess you aim higher with your posts.

Bantari wrote:

Bottom line:
If we all did 'Like' every other posts we run across, for whatever reason, each post would have been liked by 50 people or so. And then I ask you - would anybody care if a post was 'Liked' or not? It would be meaningless. Right now, only one person is so generous, and so it is no big deal. In theory, however, if you do not place strict and narrow guidelines on how you evaluate things, your evaluation becomes less meaningful.

Praise is a gift not to be withheld, but not to be given lightly neither.
That's all I am saying.

Actually I think even a forum of Bonobo's wouldn't end up liking every post. Some of them really just aren't any good. :mrgreen:

Joaz Banbeck · #3

@Bonobo: You can still like all of my posts, and I won't complain.

Bonobo · #4

First of all, I’d like all of us to hide those OT posts in that there thread, or, perhaps, JB, could you, if you have time to waste :-D

please hang those posts from there to here?

I’m sorry, I should’ve replied elsewhere in the first place (thanks, Splatted!). I’m a bit embarrassed to find myself active in/causing such a derailment, especially b/c I believe it is a quite “important” thread.

Apology to MJK and RJ :oops:

Tom

billywoods · #5

Quote:

How much do you have to like something to like it.

I do not understand the question. You like something if and only if you like it. Some people 'like' often, some rarely; sometimes out of custom, sometimes genuinely. In this way, L19 mirrors the real world rather well. The quickest way to turn these small tokens of appreciation into currency is to start policing and rationing their use.

wineandgolover · #6

Clearly we need a "like" moderator. Users are abusing this privilege. We have publicly flayed bonobo for his clearly abusive near 400% like/post ratio. But what about John Fairbairn and his measly 0.2% rate? Where is his ridicule? This must not stand. Such abuses should be publicly highlighted and corrected. If the abusers refuse to change their behavior, they should be forever banned.

Or we could, I dunno, live and let live?

Kirby · #7

Glad to see so many go-related posts on this go forum!

illluck · #8

Kirby wrote:

Glad to see so many go-related posts on this go forum!

You do realize that this is in the off-topic board?

leichtloeslich · #9

I personally think a "like"-button is useless without a "dislike"-button. A forum-reputation system without the possibility of getting "negative reputation" makes little sense to me.
It's like "please describe Adolf Hitler, only using his positive attributes". It's bound to give a distorted view of things.

stackoverflow has a useful reputation system, but that's a fundamentally different context. It's mainly a site where you ask specific technical questions and want specific technical answers, not a discussion forum.

HermanHiddema · **#10**

leichtloeslich wrote:

I personally think a "like"-button is useless without a "dislike"-button. A forum-reputation system without the possibility of getting "negative reputation" makes little sense to me.
It's like "please describe Adolf Hitler, only using his positive attributes". It's bound to give a distorted view of things.

stackoverflow has a useful reputation system, but that's a fundamentally different context. It's mainly a site where you ask specific technical questions and want specific technical answers, not a discussion forum.

It depends on the purpose of the feature. On a site like stackoverflow, answers with a higher score are put higher on the page. Since people are looking for the "correct" answer, and not for opinions, the voting mechanism reflects that.

On a site like reddit, where discussion are threaded instead of flat, there is no reason to keep posts in chronological order, because the threading system allows you to keep track of who replied to whom. In such a system, it is useful to be able to have the "better" replies nearer the top.

On L19, discussions are flat. You cannot reorder the posts without running the risk of losing the thread of conversation, because any newer post may be referring to any older post. There is no inherent way to track who replies to whom.

SO, in a flat system, what is the purpose of likes/dislikes if you cannot use them to sort the posts?

IMO, the purpose here is to cut down on noise. To cut down on the kinds of posts that do not add to the discussion, such as those saying "Thanks!" or "Me too!" or "This." or "I agree". There is nothing really wrong with those kinds of posts. There is nothing wrong with thanking someone. But it does add a lot of noise to the conversation. The like button gives people a way to express that kind of sentiment without spending a full post on it.

But if that is what the likes replace, what then would "dislikes" replace? Post like "No." or "You're wrong!" or "Nonsense". But those are posts we do not want. Posts of that kind are almost always wrong. If you disagree, you should usually explain why. So that's why plenty of systems do not have dislikes. If you disagree, explain why, no easy way out clicking the "dislike" button.

Still, on rare occasions I miss the dislike button, usually when a post is so inane that it does not even deserve a reply.

SoDesuNe · **#11**

There is no need for a dislike button because you want to promote good posts not demote the one who posts.

Boidhre · **#12**

I don't really care so long as there isn't "thanks whoring" (we had a problem with a similar system on another forum site I use where a thread was set up where the deal was that everyone posting in it would thank all posts in it just to drive up people "thanks ratings" to absurd levels). Since, no one seems to be doing it here and generally people don't seem to care about how many thanks they get as an overall number or competition or measure of worth, meh.

leichtloeslich · **#13**

HermanHiddema, backed up by illluck and Ortho, wrote:

what is the purpose of likes/dislikes? [...]
IMO, the purpose here is to cut down on noise.

I see. So you're basically saying this isn't a reputation system at all.

Then why is the number of likes given/received displayed next to every username in every single post they make?

Bantari · **#14**

wineandgolover wrote:

Clearly we need a "like" moderator. Users are abusing this privilege. We have publicly flayed bonobo for his clearly abusive near 400% like/post ratio. But what about John Fairbairn and his measly 0.2% rate? Where is his ridicule? This must not stand. Such abuses should be publicly highlighted and corrected. If the abusers refuse to change their behavior, they should be forever banned.

Well, personally, when I see a post 'Liked' by John I think: he does not give this praise lightly and so it certainly must mean something important to him when he does. Since I have high respect for him, I pay attention to that post. This is, to me, the value of 'Like'. To distinguish this post from among others.

When I see a post 'Liked' by Bonobo, I think nothing of it - just one of the zillion posts he feels like clicking 'Like' for... Regardless of the high respect I have Bonobo in. I just can't pay special attention to 70% of the posts, only regular attention, so his 'Like' badge its meaningless to me in this sense.

But that's just me... from some of the responses, I see that people actually seem to 'collect' the 'Likes' like stamps... 'please like me as much as you want, every post if you can, please, no matter what i write, pleas pleas pleas, its so very nice'...

Well, I respect such attitudes, and I am certainly not trying to lobby for everybody to change their opinions. Just voicing my own. And if enough people think differently, as it seems, I also have no problem with that... will stop paying attention to certain 'Likes' and 'Likees', so that's one functionality wasted for me, but to be honest - really, this is like the least important feature of this forum.

It has become clear to me that not everybody sees and uses the 'Like' button the way I do. There is nothing wrong with that. I wish people were more selective in their use, but I can also understand the joy some people have from giving the 'Like' praise left and right to each post and poster they not completely disagree on. And I certainly understand people getting all warm and fuzzy by getting all those 'Likes' for each of their posts, no matter what. So rock on!

Oh, and no - nobody has 'flayed' Bonobo. He is still a class act and a cool dude, whatever he does, and whomever he 'Likes'. No matter what people say!

wineandgolover wrote:

Or we could, I dunno, live and let live?

Or we can just... you know... discuss stuff.
After all, this *is* a d-i-s-c-u-s-s-i-o-n forum, no?

HermanHiddema · **#15**

leichtloeslich wrote:

HermanHiddema, backed up by illluck and Ortho, wrote:

what is the purpose of likes/dislikes? [...]
IMO, the purpose here is to cut down on noise.

I see. So you're basically saying this isn't a reputation system at all.

Then why is the number of likes given/received displayed next to every username in every single post they make?

I don't know, but I guess no reason. Really, I don't think the admins gave it much thought. Maybe it is there by default, maybe they just selected all fields when choosing what to show. I mean, "liked others" is there too. What would be the purpose of that?

And I can't say as I've ever even looked at someone's number of likes anyway when reading threads.

Kirby · **#16**

illluck wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Glad to see so many go-related posts on this go forum!

You do realize that this is in the off-topic board?

Alright, I'll revise it:

Glad to see so many ~~go-related~~ posts to the go-related boards on this go forum!

illluck · **#17**

Kirby wrote:

illluck wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Glad to see so many go-related posts on this go forum!

You do realize that this is in the off-topic board?

Alright, I'll revise it:

Glad to see so many ~~go-related~~ posts to the go-related boards on this go forum!

Would you prefer this discussion to be kept in the Jasiek study thread? The off-topic board exists for a reason.

ez4u · **#18**

I think tempers flare often enough around here that we shouldn't want to make things worse (my expectation) with a 'dislikes' button. But there are times I would kill for a good 'face-palm' smiley. :blackeye:

jts · **#19**

The major use of likes, imho, is to mark posts for posterity. In the first year of this forum if you looked at someone's likes (either giving or receiving), you would essentially be looking at a "best of" list - all the links were worth browsing through. If you forgot where someone made a really amazing post, you could often pinpoint on your liking list or on their liked list where it was. Now that's somewhat less true.

On the other hand, the likes are a good reality check. It's good to know that most people will appreciate an off-color go pun that popped into my head more than, say, long-winded thoughts about some go concept that have been on my mind all day. And I think it's very good to have a sense of the "mood of the house" in threads which grow around some central discussion or debate.

Ideally we would have two separate buttons to press - one that meant "gold star", and a second one that meant "LOL"/ "I am Spartacus!"/ "thank you".

Bantari · **#20**

jts wrote:

The major use of likes, imho, is to mark posts for posterity. In the first year of this forum if you looked at someone's likes (either giving or receiving), you would essentially be looking at a "best of" list - all the links were worth browsing through. If you forgot where someone made a really amazing post, you could often pinpoint on your liking list or on their liked list where it was. Now that's somewhat less true.

On the other hand, the likes are a good reality check. It's good to know that most people will appreciate an off-color go pun that popped into my head more than, say, long-winded thoughts about some go concept that have been on my mind all day. And I think it's very good to have a sense of the "mood of the house" in threads which grow around some central discussion or debate.

Ideally we would have two separate buttons to press - one that meant "gold star", and a second one that meant "LOL"/ "I am Spartacus!"/ "thank you".

I think this is one of the best ideas I have heard in a while.

Can we implement another such button? I understand that would be a little involved, with DB changes and interface changes. If there is a 'dislike' button on phpBB (not really familiar with that package) - can it be enabled and renamed to 'Gold Star' or something?

This would certainly satisfy the 'Like'-junkies as well as those of us who like the 'Like' to be more meaningful.

How much do you have to like something to like it.

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