I must admit that I have not exited DDK territory yet (as I do not play online as much as I used to), but just now I've realized that weiqi is a potent form of self-cultivation. Or, at least that is what I have found from experience, as my way of thinking has changed very much as a result of playing the game.

Would anyone here say that weiqi can be self-cultivation in the form of art, just like, for example, calligraphy, martial arts, music, and artistic painting? Much obliged in advance for your kind comments m(_ _)m

Absolutely. Almost anything can be a form of self-cultivation if approached in the right way. Challenging activities like weiqi lend themselves more easily to it in some ways, since they present you with many concrete obstacles which are opportunities for growth.

I think that go has the potential to be used in such a way, as it is possible to draw a connection between our strengths and deficiencies as a go player and our personal inclinations. The question is - are the connections we draw accurate? For example, one of my weaknesses in a go game is impatience - but does this mean that as a person I lack patience, or does it mean that I am impatient in the context of a go game? While the two are probably interrelated, it is not clear to me whether what I'm noticing is a general or a specific flaw. If I assume that it points to a general flaw, the next question is - does go help me overcome it? They say that recognition is the first step in overcoming a problem, but does go take you any further? I do try to overcome my impatience when playing, but whether this effort has an effect on other aspects of my life is something I find difficult to judge.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Uh ........ in the culture where the game evolved it was considered one of the traditional accomplishments of a "gentleman" < literate class >

Then again I remember hearing it was played mostly by farmers in the beginnings in China and thus an activity associated with low social status. So, not at all gentleman-like.

Farmer men can be gentle.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

There have been times during Chinese history in which weiqi fell out of favor with the Imperial government. If the game was indeed in its earliest beginnings the game of farmers, then it must have been so rich in merit as to have been, in the end, favored by royalty and the aristocracy. Tea consumption in China probably began with rural farmers that first experienced the benefits of tea drinking, with the custom becoming widely known and soon reaching the ears of the Heavenly Sovereign. This would be like the Biblical story of David the shepherd boy being summoned to King Saul's court on account of his skills on the lyre.

Where did you hear that? I don't think that I have seen such an idea in print before. Quite the opposite.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

There you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0gSVWceSuc (from 5minutes in till end)

"Common people", not farmers, but the idea remains valid: go wasn't an intellectual persuit of some high social class, it was a "pasttime for unsuccessful people" (according to Confucius, appearently).

That link is Part 1 of 3. Part 1 is 8:37 minutes long. "Common people" was mentioned at 07:51 minutes in Part 1.

That's not really accurate. Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day". Not demeaning but not flattering either. I am paraphrasing him quite accurately, obviously.

kivi, I like your paraphrasing. Do you happen to have the original text by any chance ?

Uh ...... is it possible that "unsuccessful people" might be interpreted as "those who failed at the higher levels of the exams" and hence have no official career. They would still be literate class.

Confucius lived 2500 years ago. Four Arts of the Scholar (painting, guqin, calligraphy and weiqi) are a 9th century Tang Dynasty concept. There were no imperial examinations in Confucius's time. You can't just pretend "ancient China" is a monolithic entity.

Yes, I knew that (the relative dates). Just as I knew that the bits and snippets that survived from the pre "dark ages" book burning became enshrined as post "dark ages" Chinese culture developed.

But it's not what Confucius wrote or how he meant it to apply in this own time and culture that matters (or that we can even know) but what use was made of Confucius at those later time periods when Chinese culture as we know it came into being.

We have the same sort of problem in our own culture Western Civ)as we interpret/reinterpet survivals from thousands of years in our past. In some cases (in the Bible for example) not only do we have the problem of thousands of years between the time written down to now but in some cases the initial writing down of material surviving from a thousand years before meant those doing the writing down didn't really understand the material in the original cultural context.

子曰：「飽食終日，無所用心，難矣哉！不有博弈者乎，為之猶賢乎已。」 (See 22 well down the page) That has the Legge translation, I think, which mentions chess players instead of Go (yi). The D. C. Lau translation (i.e. Penguin Classics) has, "The Master said, 'It is no easy matter for a man who always has a full stomach to put his mind to some use. Are there not such things as po and yi*? Even playing these games is better than being idle.'"
* I learned about the use of yi versus wei-ch'i by reading GoGoD so will leave anything further to JF.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Afaik, the original text (I don't read Chinese) says "bo and yi". It's in book 17.

Legge's translation says "gamesters and chess players". Bo is a particular game, apparently it's rules are not known anymore. Yi, as you point out, is weiqi.

Chess/satranj/xiangqi were invented much later than Confucius' era, so that gamesters-chess translation was probably more concerned about conveying the idea to the western audience, rather than being accurate with game names.

*nyoink*

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Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day." -- kivi