Life In 19x19 :: yi vs weiqi

The earliest written reference to the game is generally recognized as the historical annal Zuo Zhuan (c. 4th century BCE), referring to a historical event of 548 BCE. It is also mentioned in Book XVII of the Analects of Confucius[10] and in two books written by Mencius (c. 3rd century BCE). In all of these works, the game is referred to as yì (弈). Today, in China, it is known as weiqi (simplified Chinese: 围棋; traditional Chinese: 圍棋; pinyin: wéiqí; Wade–Giles: wei ch'i), lit. 'encirclement board game'.

As to why yi was first used whereas weiqi became usual later, the answer is probably found in the book "Fang Yan" [Dialects] by the Han scholar Yang Xiong (53 BC - 18 AD) which says, "Yi refers to weiqi. East of the Hangu Pass in the states of Qi and Lu everyone says yi." Lu, now Shandong Province, was the home of both Confucius and Mencius and so yi was naturally the term used by them.

Author:	tundra [ Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:	yi vs weiqi
In the wikipedia article on go, under "History", this statement is made: Quote: The earliest written reference to the game is generally recognized as the historical annal Zuo Zhuan (c. 4th century BCE), referring to a historical event of 548 BCE. It is also mentioned in Book XVII of the Analects of Confucius[10] and in two books written by Mencius (c. 3rd century BCE). In all of these works, the game is referred to as yì (弈). Today, in China, it is known as weiqi (simplified Chinese: 围棋; traditional Chinese: 圍棋; pinyin: wéiqí; Wade–Giles: wei ch'i), lit. 'encirclement board game'. Now, when I describe go to non-players, I would like to bring this up, to show how old the game is. (The often-made claim of an origin 4000 years ago is not solidly established, in my opinion.) But I am not sure if historians are certain that yi and weiqi refer to the same game. However, there is a very interesting article by John Fairbairn, from 1995, on "Go in Ancient China": https://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/essa ... china.html It includes such statements as this: Quote: As to why yi was first used whereas weiqi became usual later, the answer is probably found in the book "Fang Yan" [Dialects] by the Han scholar Yang Xiong (53 BC - 18 AD) which says, "Yi refers to weiqi. East of the Hangu Pass in the states of Qi and Lu everyone says yi." Lu, now Shandong Province, was the home of both Confucius and Mencius and so yi was naturally the term used by them. This is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for. But - and my apologies if my impression is wrong - it seems that now he no longer refers to these early, Confucian-era references. Instead, the earliest he mentions is usually the Dunhuang classic. So my question, for John Fairbairn, is: Do you still feel that the earlier sources prove that go existed back in the time of Confucius? Or has some uncertainty arisen since 1995? Thanks very much!

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: yi vs weiqi
Hi tundra Yes, a fair bit of uncertainty has developed since 1995, though not so much about whether go existed in the time of Confucius, or thereabouts. The devil is in the detail. I no longer keep on top of this vast topic, but some of the elements that have increased uncertainty are: 1. Increasing doubts about whether Confucius actually said what it is claimed he said. It may be later writers putting words in his mouth. This may reduce the age of go a little. If he did know go, that would give an age of some 2,500 years. But I've seen no reference to doubts about what Mencius later said, so we are talking here of a range of just a couple of centuries. And even if Confucius did not know go, he and his follower Mencius have certainly been woven inextricably into the tapestry of later go. 2. Discovery of new and/or various-sized boards. These may indicate either a different game or go being played with different rules from what we know. The existence of Tibetan go suggest that, and as I have shown in Wizardry from the Stone Chamber, what we know as Korean sunjang baduk may also have an ancient Chinese origin. 3. A large haul of go texts has been discovered in Gansu, but they are in a rare language and await translation. They would pre-date the Dunhuang manual (i.e. 6th century and backwards). 4. Further, more modern texts have been discovered which shine a light backwards and cause reappraisals. What was once touted as the oldest game (Sun Ce vs. Lue Fan) is now considered to be not a game but a self-play model of opening play almost 1,000 years more recent. Such examples of model play, we now know, abound from Song times onwards, and the addition of the names seems nowadays simply to match the habit of attaching whimsical names to problems. There has been talk of using AI to match the style of play in the alleged old games to see whether they match the style of play of Song times (as suspected by the best researchers), but I haven't yet heard if this has gone ahead. There's much more to be said (including new discoveries relating to other games commingled with go), but if you want a summary to use when proselytising go, I'd suggest that you say that go more or less as we know it is almost certainly at least 2,000 years old, though some of the rules must have changed. Mythologically, its origins go back 4,000 years but that is more a mark of the esteem in which go has been held than something based on historical fact.

Author:	afibigidea [ Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: yi vs weiqi
I think that the game definitely existed in Ancient Greece and Rome, as well as in China. Most likely, the first toys were created from wood and therefore have not survived to this day. Because of this, archaeologists are skeptical about this hypothesis.

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