Life In 19x19
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Keyboards.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2024		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Solomon [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Keyboards.
What kind of keyboard do L19ers use? I'm willing to bet most people use membrane or scissor-switch keyboards, but maybe a handful of people here use mechanical keyboards and would like to share their thoughts on how it feels or whether they felt it was worth the premium price?

As for myself, I have a Steelseries 7g and I looooooooooooooooooove it. It's not perfect though, and some things I don't like about the keyboard include a small backspace key, no Windows key on the left side, and the ports at the top are USB 1.1 instead of 2.0. Overall though I'm very happy with it. It's quieter than a Model M, and doesn't seem to require as much force to press down on a key as a Model M or a Das (I didn't get a chance to type on these keyboards extensively, just a bit at a LAN party). The wrist-rest that it came with is just incredible too, despite its rather large size. Do I feel it was worth the price? Hmmm....that's a question I still find difficult to answer today :P.

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Information on the different kinds of keyboards out there can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology
Author:  threeve [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
Image

http://www.apple.com/keyboard/

Mostly I use this keyboard because it is almost exactly like the built-in keyboard of my MacBook Pro and is very comfortable for me.
Author:  Aphelion [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
Funny you should mention, I have been drolling over the Filco keyboards at elitekeyboards.com the last couple weeks, and then I just saw a "CaptainFwiffo" post at TL about the Filco keyboard Fruitdealer uses.

Does anyone know if there are brick and mortar places where I can try these out? I would certainly like to test the different kinds of mechanical switches before sinking $100+ on a keyboard.
Author:  fwiffo [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I use a Filco Majestouch tenkeyless with Cherry MX Brown switches, which is why I immediately recognized this:

Image

Of course, that's the full-size version.

I've also used a Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2 for many years.

Edit: I don't know if there's a brick and mortor shop where you can try one out... I do think it's a good idea with a keyboard or mouse to see if it feels good to you. I had a friend who had one, so I was able to borrow it for a couple days before I bought one of my own. I've played with a Model M before, so I already knew I didn't like a loud click, which is why I went with the browns over the blues.
Author:  fwiffo [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
Here's the one I use:

Image

Note that I've made some modifications. Caps Lock is a completely useless key in a prime location, so I've remapped it as an extra Left Control key (though I'm thinking that it might be sweet to have a spare backspace key there). A lot of Unix keyboards (and HHKB) have Control there. I've also remapped the tilde/grave key to be Escape, because I use vim, and escape should be easy to reach without going too far. Because I still need to use tilde/grave, I've remapped Scroll Lock to tilde/grave, since Scroll Lock is really never used for anything ever.
Author:  Gresil [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
A black one that says Logitech. Exciting.
Author:  CSamurai [ Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
What every geek wants.

I actually own a Microsoft Reclusa, which is their Razer cooperation gaming keyboard. I don't know if they're mechanical or not, but they're excedingly smooth and quiet, making typing and high button press gaming much less taxing. It amuses me that the 'high speed keys' is a selling point for this keyboard, as I think you may have to be an SC pro to notice a latency difference in your keyboard, but hey.

My laptop has very loud keys, and it's a pleasure to have the quiet, smooth action of the Reclusa.

And, you can get the Reclusa quite cheap these days, since no one likes its macro capabilities. I've never been a macroer for games, so it doesn't bother me at all that the macro settings aren't horribly great.

I mostly bought it because it was the best feeling keyboard in the store when my last one broke down, and was large enough to be used as a weapon. I miss old IBM keyboards, with the twisted cords, that were heavy and large and solid. They never broke down. These days, I go through a keyboard every couple years, and I've begun to wonder, what is it that they make them out of, biodegradable plastic?
Author:  kirkmc [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I use the Apple keyboard similar to the one that Threeve posted above, but it's the wired version with the number pad. (I tried the wireless without the number pad, and, even though I don't use numbers that often, I do use them daily; I couldn't get used to using the top row of keys instead.)

For many years I used a variety of ergonomic keyboards, and my last before the Apple was a Logitech Wave. But I find that the Apple, while not ergonomic - ie, the keys are in straight rows - is extremely comfortable, because the keys press easily, yet give good feedback.

Not part of the question, but I bought an Apple Magic Trackpad in May, and after a few weeks I wouldn't switch it for anything. (I'd tried the Magic Mouse and didn't care for it, and my previous mouse - for several years - was a Logitech multi-button mouse.)
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
My first alternate keyboard was one of these:

Image

Then I upgraded to: http://www.typematrix.com/shop/images/products/2030-dvorak.png

After a number of years I got what I really wanted:

Image

I really want to get apple's trackpad to put in the middle there, but I don't think it works with ubuntu or windows...?

btw the Kinesis is great for typing but sucks for playing games due to the layout, I actually have two keyboards hooked up to my computer. The other one is nothing special. The Kinesis is in dvorak mode, the other one not.

I highly recommend the latter two keyboards in this post.
Author:  DrStraw [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I have never used anything except the keyboard which the computer comes with. It never occurred to me to do otherwise. Right now I have a small laptop and just use the keyboard on that. I don't even have a clue what most of the posts in the thread are talking about. Does it really make that much difference as most people can adjust to whatever they have. Sort of like driving a car - when I need one I just buy the best deal my mechanic has on his lot.
Author:  CSamurai [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
DrStraw wrote:
Sort of like driving a car - when I need one I just buy the best deal my mechanic has on his lot.


And other people buy cars and keyboards for a great many reasons.

Some people buy them for ergonometry. Some people buy them for LCD screens with programable temperature readouts. Some people buy them as hypnosis aides. Some people buy them to have smooth, easy to use controls. Some people buy them to look flashy and work worse than most of the others.

Sometimes, it's something you have to discover. You don't know what you're missing until you've tried the creature comforts of something truly better than your accustomed keyboard/ride/etc.

Sometimes it's something you have to genuinely be different to appreciate. Not everyone is meant to covet a smooth key action.
Author:  ethanb [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
fwiffo wrote:
Here's the one I use:

(awesome keyboard with mechanical switches pictured)

Note that I've made some modifications. Caps Lock is a completely useless key in a prime location, so I've remapped it as an extra Left Control key (though I'm thinking that it might be sweet to have a spare backspace key there). A lot of Unix keyboards (and HHKB) have Control there. I've also remapped the tilde/grave key to be Escape, because I use vim, and escape should be easy to reach without going too far. Because I still need to use tilde/grave, I've remapped Scroll Lock to tilde/grave, since Scroll Lock is really never used for anything ever.


Ok, so I've wanted a(nother) mechanical keyboard since I realized I couldn't use the Model-K (I think) that came with my IBM XT anymore as computers were switching to these newfangled "PS/2" connectors.

But every one of these has *almost* but not quite exactly the features I want.

The new Model-M can come with Ctrl and Caps Lock switched from the factory (also Esc and tilde) which is awesome. But they only do that if you get the PS/2 version, not USB! How does the connector dictate the circuit layout? *grumble grumble* ok, next.

The HHKB has dipswitches to change the Ctrl and Caps layout... but the keys aren't the same size, so you can't relocate them. If I wanted to do that what do I need dipswitches for? It's an easy config change in your operating system!

Basically I want a "Linux" version Model-M with a USB connector. My current motherboard is probably the last one I'll ever have with PS/2, and I'd rather not spend near $100 on another keyboard that I can remember with nostalgia because I can't use it anymore!

Does anyone know where I can find such a beast? Bonus points if it's printed like the keyboards from ZaReason and has Tux (or even the BSD devil... or heck, anything else really) on the Super key instead of the Windows logo.


EDIT: oh, oh! The HHKB2 has Control in the right place and is printed that way! Almost four times as expensive as a Model-M, and also doesn't have a keypad (which I prefer to the 4 arrow keys)... Grrr... still not exactly what I want, but close enough to make me mad that I can't find it.

Ok, ten-key is a needed feature. I like separate keypads but don't have enough deskspace right now, so I need one built in to the keyboard. Sub-$100 is also a feature, but sub-$150 is pretty much a necessity.
Author:  Li Kao [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I like the flat keys of my laptop keyboard. The lack of key rollover is really annoying though.
Why can't normal keyboards not have at least three or four key rollover. :mad:
Author:  fwiffo [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
DrStraw wrote:
I have never used anything except the keyboard which the computer comes with. It never occurred to me to do otherwise.

I've tried to think of a good analogy... It's like buying a couch or a chair. Sure, you could watch TV or work on a computer sitting on a folding chair, but a nice recliner or office chair is much more comfortable to sit on. Even if it's more expensive, it's worth it if you do a lot of sitting. And even a chair (keyboard) of average quality will last many years with basic care, so it's really not that expensive.

@ethanb: Is this the fix you need?

Image

There are PS/2 to USB adapters, so you should be able to use a PS/2 Model M for the foreseeable future. And if you still can't find what you need, check out geekhack.org. There are some serious keyboard fetishists there who will point you in the right direction.

Also, note in my previous post how I remapped my Filco (the regular version of this keyboard has a number pad, and they sell matching separate number pads with your choice of cherry switch as well). The keycaps in the F-key row match those in the number row, so I was able to make all my keycaps match except for the Caps Lock, which I think I can probably live with. I have been looking for a source of left control keys that fit a cherry stem and match the size of that caps lock key, with no luck so far. There are places that make/print custom keycaps, but the minimum order is usually a lot more than one key. The closest I can come is some sort of novelty keycap, when I'd really like one that matches the Filco exactly.

I've gotten a little more zen lately about the subject, realizing that there isn't any such thing as the perfect keyboard, and being able to settle for "very good".
Author:  daal [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
Besides my Olivetti, which has performed it's duties for over 30 years without a hitch, I have a 7 year old IBM Thinkpad, which for a laptop is said to have an excellent keyboard. I certainly can't complain, although I have replaced it once due to a key wearing out. The keyboard has a button in the middle of it so that you can move the cursor around without taking your hands from the keys. Whee!

This thread reminds me of this one: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=8&t=2004
Author:  Harleqin [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I like laptop keyboards, because they have short action. Mine has a slight curve, for a quite comfortable hand position:

Image

I have never felt the need to switch to a dvorak or colemak layout. I only made some minor adjustments, such as switching left control and caps lock (important for me) and making standard accents available as both dead and non-dead keys. It is no space cadet yet...
Author:  kirkmc [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
daniel_the_smith wrote:
After a number of years I got what I really wanted:


I reviewed the Kineses a number of years ago. My two complaints are that it's way too big, and that the action on the keys is (was) very stiff. It's also overpriced.

BTW, I use a Dvorak layout too; I just find that with less movement on the keys, I don't need an ergo shape keyboard.
Author:  kirkmc [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
Harleqin wrote:
I like laptop keyboards, because they have short action. Mine has a slight curve, for a quite comfortable hand position:

I have never felt the need to switch to a dvorak or colemak layout. I only made some minor adjustments, such as switching left control and caps lock (important for me) and making standard accents available as both dead and non-dead keys. It is no space cadet yet...


Is that your computer? Why do you leave the stickers on?

Re Dvorak: it's of no use unless you touch-type.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
re: dvorak:

I would say there's no point in learning it unless you *don't* already touch type; it's easier to learn than Qwerty and you won't be able to transfer your bad habits over. Or if you're getting RSI, but switch keyboards and mice before you go to all the effort.
Author:  rubin427 [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keyboards.
I was having issues with my wrists. I literally could not type without pain.
Got this Kineses Freestyle w/ 20 inch seperation. Now all is A-okay.

Image

If you get one for yourself, do not let even a drop of water near it. It's very sensitive to water/liquids.

Pedantic trivia warning.

For those of you talking about Dovorak, I'll offer the following trivia. The standard korean keyboard layout is seperated, consonants on the left, vowles on the right. The rules of the language nearly enforce a consonant-vowel-consonant pattern (with exceptions, of course). I still use qwerty when typing roman characters, but I can't type in korean without thinking of Dovorak.

More fun trivia. The first qwerty keyboard was on a product marketed as the typewritter. As a marketing gimic, all the letters in the word typewritter are on the top row of letters... Think you haven't used a typewritter in years? think again.
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