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Cheating in chess
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3510		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  kirkmc [ Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Cheating in chess
This story actually made the French news on TV last night:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12853229

It's interesting in several ways. First, according to the French TV report, "coaches" of the different teams are allowed to circulate among the players while the games are going on. Hearing this, it seems to me that there are likely to have been other cases of cheating, simply with coaches making "suggestions" with their eyes or with hand signals.

But what I find most interesting is that this game, which is supposed to be so "noble," has gotten to the point where even top players are not as good as computer programs. So the players figure that if they can have software analyze their positions, they can do better using suggestions from the software.

I could imagine certain situations in go where this could be useful - complex joseki variations, complicated life-and-death problems - but I can't imagine any go player at such a level needing help with these parts of a game.

In the French TV report, it was said that the players confessed to the trickery before recanting. (The BBC article doesn't say this.)

I guess this is, in some ways, similar to using performance-enhancing drugs. The computer enhances your play.
Author:  Tsuyoku [ Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
The problem is that computers can deliver better moves than players, coupled with the tiny amount of data that needs to be communicated for it to work.

The only way to fully ensure no communication happens between coach and player, is to keep coaches isolated from the player, so that the player cannot in any way perceive the coach. Something like keeping the players in their own separate room, where no-one else may enter until the match is over, and with a jamming device to prevent any electronic signals being sent.

If they keep it up, that's probably exactly what will happen for important matches.
Author:  azrael [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
I wonder if there are any similar stories regarding the modern Pro/Strong Amateur Go tournament such as mejin, WGAC etc
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
azrael wrote:
I wonder if there are any similar stories regarding the modern Pro/Strong Amateur Go tournament such as mejin, WGAC etc

In go you need a stronger player to help you cheat. In chess you can use a computer.
Author:  pwaldron [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
azrael wrote:
I wonder if there are any similar stories regarding the modern Pro/Strong Amateur Go tournament such as mejin, WGAC etc


There is at least one case: Yu Bin subbed in for an amateur in an online IGS tournament about 15 years ago. You can check the newsgroup archives for the details.
Author:  jts [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
pwaldron wrote:
azrael wrote:
I wonder if there are any similar stories regarding the modern Pro/Strong Amateur Go tournament such as mejin, WGAC etc


There is at least one case: Yu Bin subbed in for an amateur in an online IGS tournament about 15 years ago. You can check the newsgroup archives for the details.


That's rather surprising! Were there any repercussions for Yu Bin?
Author:  pwaldron [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
jts wrote:
pwaldron wrote:
That's rather surprising! Were there any repercussions for Yu Bin?


Not as far as I know.
Author:  cyclops [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
soon enough you only need some wifi device implanted into your brains to become world champion
Author:  entropi [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
Taking help from a stronger person is already bad enough. But taking help from a computer in a chess tournament is like participating in weight lifting championship with a forklift.
Author:  Tommie [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
kirkmc wrote:
I guess this is, in some ways, similar to using performance-enhancing drugs.
The computer enhances your play.


That is what Kasparov (I believe to recall) suggested for Chess - in a new tournament format, making it eligible & legal to employ the help of computers.
Author:  Mivo [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
Tommie wrote:
That is what Kasparov (I believe to recall) suggested for Chess - in a new tournament format, making it eligible & legal to employ the help of computers.


How would this work? Computers are already stronger than humans, so wouldn't the outcome depend on which player has the ""bigger" hardware with the better software?
Author:  Tsuyoku [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
You could do something like with car races, where entrants' vehicles have to fit a design specification, which sets a minimum and maximum for various parameters.

This still leaves open the possibility of using an off-site hugely overpowered computer to do the real work, though.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
Mivo wrote:
Tommie wrote:
That is what Kasparov (I believe to recall) suggested for Chess - in a new tournament format, making it eligible & legal to employ the help of computers.


How would this work? Computers are already stronger than humans, so wouldn't the outcome depend on which player has the ""bigger" hardware with the better software?


No, it doesn't seem to work that way. The centaur tournaments so far have displayed that having a strong engine is important, but a very well prepared opening book and a good strategic understanding of how to make the most of your choice of engine's strengths seems more important than the net strength of the engine.

Unfortunately, Rybka is _so_ strong, even compared to its nearest rivals, that it is hard to see other engines being as useful, although some swear by Fritz and Junior for very specific types of games and positions.
Author:  flOvermind [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cheating in chess
Mivo wrote:
Tommie wrote:
That is what Kasparov (I believe to recall) suggested for Chess - in a new tournament format, making it eligible & legal to employ the help of computers.


How would this work? Computers are already stronger than humans, so wouldn't the outcome depend on which player has the ""bigger" hardware with the better software?


Strategically, chess engines are still rather stupid compared to humans. But this disadvantage is outweighted by their superior computation power. A human just can't read ahead as far as an engine. Chess engines don't win because they have better strategy, they win using relatively primitive strategies combined with very deep reading.

This of course raises the question: What would happen when you equip a human player with the reading ability of computers? In theory, the level of play would be a lot higher than the level of an engine alone. Centaur tournaments are an attempt to find out whether that's true ;)

In these tournaments, the human uses the engine as a tool to analyze the position, and then makes a move based on that analysis. This is a lot more powerful than just letting the engine generate a move. The human can for example guide the reading of the engine by setting strategic goals, influencing the base evaluation function and so on. The engine can also be used as a query tool, e.g. "can my opponent force this exchange"...
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