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Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please!
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8274		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kanin [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please!
Hi,

Lately I've been wanting to play imperfect information games that have interesting game play. I quite enjoy poker, but I feel it has some major down sides:

1. Very often the correct move is to not play at all (sitting out a hand). A game should exist to be played, in my opinion.
2. Because of the chance factor a lot of time is wasted taking bad beats (losing in spite of superior play). Anyone who knows poker knows that it is a skill game. But no matter how skilled you are it will only show in the long run, this wastes players' time.
3. The rules are not elegant and/or simple. For me poker is very ugly aesthetically because the rules are so random and hodge podge (one of the reasons I like go better than chess).
4. You need stakes to make it interesting.


So, I know in this forum there are many game nerds and people who have a lot of knowledge and experience when it comes to games. I started this thread to ask you if you have any tips for good imperfect information games.

It would also be cool if anyone has some imperfect information games that can be played on a go board. Recently bgrieco posted his idea for such a game here and at a congress I saw some people playing some sort of "ghost go" which was similar to Battle Ship in the sense that the the two players played their moves on different boards without seeing the other player's move and they would find out what the moves were once they came into play.

Anyways, any tips are much appreciated, thanks!
Author:  tj86430 [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
My favorite game of imperfect information is Bridge.

I also like a card game played in Finland, "marjapussi" and its variant "huutopussi". I don't know if they are known outside of Finland, and if they are, what are they called (the direct translations would be "a bag of berries" and "shouting bag").

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjapussi
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
You could browse through this list of the highest rated board games:

http://boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardga ... rank=50#50

Most games are imperfect information, so I don't think the site categorises them this way.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Dominion is a card game which is quite good fun, and I know quite a few Go players who are really into it.
Author:  phrax [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Uberdude wrote:
Dominion is a card game which is quite good fun, and I know quite a few Go players who are really into it.


I second the Dominion suggestion. There is also Magic the Gathering.
Author:  TIM82 [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
phrax wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
Dominion is a card game which is quite good fun, and I know quite a few Go players who are really into it.


I second the Dominion suggestion. There is also Magic the Gathering.


Some personal recommendations of "modern" boardgames - see boardgamegeek.com for details and descriptions of these. I own lots of games and have tried out a ton more but the following I'm glad to play again anytime.

Race for the Galaxy
El Grande
Prince of Florence - or was it Princes of Florence?
Agricola
Blokus
7 Wonders
Eclipse
Author:  Bantari [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
tj86430 wrote:
My favorite game of imperfect information is Bridge.

I also like a card game played in Finland, "marjapussi" and its variant "huutopussi". I don't know if they are known outside of Finland, and if they are, what are they called (the direct translations would be "a bag of berries" and "shouting bag").

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjapussi


This sounds similar to the game I played a lot in Poland, called 'Thousand'. Not sure if it was actually a polish game, but I have not run into it anywhere else I have been. Here is the description: Thousand
Author:  Tooveli [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Just being annoying and pedantic but Blokus is perfect information (IIRC).
Author:  Twitchy Go [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/magiconline.aspx
Magic is one of my favorite non go pasttimes.[above is a link to online magic playing. Not sure how it works because I usually play with my friends at the comic shop though]
There are some pros and cons to it as a game.
Pros:
Magic is skill based:
Your deck is important, but a better player will win more often with the same deck. And will beat a weaker player even with an inferior deck.

Huge scope for creativity:
You can build a deck around almost any idea. Some very weak cards can be very OP if you can figure out how to use them right. And building decks is really fun! You can even print out pictures of the card to make a proxy deck if you are just playing casually. I do this a lot with my friends. I'll often have a new idea every time we play.

Very simple goal:
Remove all of your opponents life points or be the last person with cards in your deck.

Cons:
Rules:
These can be a pain to deal with. Most of the time it isn't a problem though. Once you're used to the phase order and the idea of stacks,you just do what the card effects say. Once you start getting creative though you'll definitely have to slog through the rules a few times.

Cost:
It takes a good deal of money to build a collection of cards.
Author:  skydyr [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
I have to second the nomination for bridge. Bidding is a complex information game of trying to get a sense of your partner's and your opponents' hands based on very limited disclosure. Then you play the hand out to see how you did on bidding. It strongly rewards skill, as opposed to some games that can be much more luck based.
Author:  Kanin [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Thanks everyone for the tips. I guess I should try to get into bridge, but you need a partner. Maye there is some good online bridge?

Also thanks for the list of the top 100 board games, but how trustworthy of a list can it be? I mean Go at place 50? C'mooooon! :)



tj86430 wrote:
My favorite game of imperfect information is Bridge.

I also like a card game played in Finland, "marjapussi" and its variant "huutopussi". I don't know if they are known outside of Finland, and if they are, what are they called (the direct translations would be "a bag of berries" and "shouting bag").

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjapussi


Yeah, we play a similar game in Sweden called Bondtolva (Farmer's Twelve). I guess these trick-style card games have been around for a while.
Author:  Boidhre [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Kanin wrote:
Also thanks for the list of the top 100 board games, but how trustworthy of a list can it be? I mean Go at place 50? C'mooooon! :)


Chess is 283rd. ;)

I second Dominion by the way, it's the cheaper way into deck building games which are quite interesting as a genre.
Author:  tj86430 [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Kanin wrote:
Thanks everyone for the tips. I guess I should try to get into bridge, but you need a partner. Maye there is some good online bridge?

There is okbridge, which is very good, but no longer free (it used to be free about 20 years ago when it started, and for some time after). There also a decent free site, the name of which I don't remember right now. I'm sure you can find it via google.

e: its Bridge Base Online. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_b ... based_play
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Kanin wrote:
Thanks everyone for the tips. I guess I should try to get into bridge, but you need a partner. Maye there is some good online bridge?


I learned to play bridge about 15 years ago thanks to a book with a title like 'learn to play bridge in 5 weeks' and some putzing around on yahoo games. I'm not sure how many people still play there, though.
Author:  jts [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Diplomacy. There are a few weird corner cases and rulings that give it slightly less elegant rules than, say, Go, but on the whole it's the best imperfect information abstract game I know.

Of course, it's possible what you like about poker is the randomness, rather than the imperfect information. Diplomacy does not have any random variables (although the outcome of your own strategy is unpredictable because it hinges on the outcome of the other players' strategies.)

Also, like poker, it's a game where if the other players are playing incompetently, it completely changes the game for everyone; unlike poker, losing incompetently is not punished any more harshly than losing competently.
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
jts wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Diplomacy. There are a few weird corner cases and rulings that give it slightly less elegant rules than, say, Go, but on the whole it's the best imperfect information abstract game I know.

Of course, it's possible what you like about poker is the randomness, rather than the imperfect information. Diplomacy does not have any random variables (although the outcome of your own strategy is unpredictable because it hinges on the outcome of the other players' strategies.)

Also, like poker, it's a game where if the other players are playing incompetently, it completely changes the game for everyone; unlike poker, losing incompetently is not punished any more harshly than losing competently.


I'm not sure that Diplomacy qualifies as an imperfect information game. Everything is on the board available to everyone when you plan your turn. You may not know what everyone is planning, but how is that different from go, when you can't read your opponent's mind?

Of course, the interpersonal dynamics in diplomacy and necessity of alliances make it completely different from go as well.
Author:  Boidhre [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
I agree with skydyr, Diplomacy isn't an imperfect information game in the usual sense of the term.
Author:  drmwc [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
Hungarian Tarok, and Illustrated Hungarian Tarok, are both awesome games with similarities to bridge. You need a Tarot pack and 3 other palyers (although it can be played with 5 in total).

http://www.pagat.com/tarot/xx-hivas.html
http://www.pagat.com/tarot/illusztr.html
Author:  TheBigH [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
I personally dislike games of chance. I would be interested if there are any games of imperfect information, but in which luck does not have any influence whatsoever on the result.
Author:  Boidhre [ Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for fun imperfect information games, tips please
TheBigH wrote:
I personally dislike games of chance. I would be interested if there are any games of imperfect information, but in which luck does not have any influence whatsoever on the result.


Not being a game of chance and luck not having an influence are not the same thing.
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