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Hat problem http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8323 |
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Author: | drmwc [ Wed May 01, 2013 2:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Hat problem |
4 bridge players are at a table. The tournament director offers them the following proposition: They are all randomly and simulateously assigned black or white hats. Once they are given their hat, they may not communicate with the other 3 players in any way. If they violate this rule in any way, they will all be shot. The chances of an individual player being given a hat of a particular colour is 50%; and the hat colours are chosen independently for the 4 players. They cannot see their own hat colour, but they can see the other 3 players' hats. Any attempt to find their own hat colour by nefarious methods (such as mirrors) will result in them all being shot. After a deliberation period, all 4 players have the option of guessing their hat colour. The guesses will be simultaneous (or they will be shot). Each player has the option of remaining silent - this will not result in anyone being shot. If at least one player guesses, and all the guesses made are correct, they win a bottle of champagne. Wrong guesses have no ill effect - no-one is shot. They may discuss strategy beforehand without being shot. The problem is to find a strategy which maximises the probability of them getting champagne, with 0% chance of them being shot. To get things started: They could nominate 1 person to guess and the other three will abstain. This has 50% chance of champagne. (The winning strattegy is better than 50%.) |
Author: | LocoRon [ Wed May 01, 2013 3:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
drmwc wrote: The problem is to find a strategy which maximises the porbability of them getting champagne, with 0 chance of them being shot. |
Author: | Magicwand [ Wed May 01, 2013 3:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
drmwc wrote: 4 bridge players ...... than 50%.) i have a feeing that i am missing some important info. |
Author: | amnal [ Wed May 01, 2013 4:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be clever with the wording or not...I can't see a way of doing it taking it all completely at face value (though with this kind of problem, that's more likely to be my failing than anything else ![]() |
Author: | tundra [ Wed May 01, 2013 6:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
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Author: | Fedya [ Wed May 01, 2013 6:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Author: | kaimat [ Wed May 01, 2013 7:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Author: | rhubarb [ Wed May 01, 2013 8:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
amnal wrote: I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be clever with the wording or not...I can't see a way of doing it taking it all completely at face value (though with this kind of problem, that's more likely to be my failing than anything else ![]() Following up on this, a request for clarification: |
Author: | bgrieco [ Wed May 01, 2013 8:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
This problem is also known as the "muddy children". Instead of hats. Kids have mud on their faces, which they cannot see. It's an interesting example on use of Kripke's structures for Modal Logic. Not spilling the beans beyond this point though ![]() |
Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed May 01, 2013 8:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
This is not the "Muddy Children" problem. It that, the children's answers are sequential. In the bridge problem, the answers are simultaneous. As the problem is stated, with simultaneous answers, and dreadful penalty for ilicit communication, there is no information transferred between players. Thus each player is effectively in his own informaton universe. The best one can do is 50%. If a second guesses, the chances of winning the bottle are 25%. My conclusion is that Drmwc accidentally mis-stated the problem, or he just likes to shoot people. ![]() My best guess about the mis-statement is that there are multiple rounds. |
Author: | Boidhre [ Wed May 01, 2013 8:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: This is not the "Muddy Children" problem. It that, the children's answers are sequential. In the bridge problem, the answers are simultaneous. As the problem is stated, with simultaneous answers, and dreadful penalty for ilicit communication, there is no information transferred between players. Thus each player is effectively in his own informaton universe. The best one can do is 50%. If a second guesses, the chances of winning the bottle are 25%. My conclusion is that Drmwc accidentally mis-stated the problem, or he just likes to shoot people. ![]() My best guess about the mis-statement is that there are multiple rounds. Nope. A mistake he did make but you're incorrect. |
Author: | skydyr [ Wed May 01, 2013 9:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Is there a known pool of hats from which the players hats are selected? |
Author: | rhubarb [ Wed May 01, 2013 9:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Muddy Children does, I think, need the children to know at the outset that at least one of them is muddy. (Analogue: know that at least one of the participants has a white hat, or that at least one has a black hat.) I'll probably feel dumb when the answer's posted, but I don't immediately see it. @skydyr: I think it's to be understood as each of the participants' being selected by a separate (independent) coin toss. |
Author: | jlaire [ Wed May 01, 2013 9:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: The best one can do is 50%. If a second guesses, the chances of winning the bottle are 25%. Nope. Here's a simple counterexample. |
Author: | Boidhre [ Wed May 01, 2013 9:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Boidhre wrote: Nope. A mistake he did make but you're incorrect. I was being dense, ignore me. ![]() |
Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed May 01, 2013 10:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
jlaire wrote: Nope. Here's a simple counterexample... I was being dense too. ![]() However, the counterexample still does not get above 50%, so I still think that Drmwc forgot something. |
Author: | jlaire [ Wed May 01, 2013 11:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: However, the counterexample still does not get above 50% It wasn't supposed to. ![]() |
Author: | Boidhre [ Thu May 02, 2013 12:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Hat problem |
Yeah, my problem was I read it and my brain went, "so he didn't rule out an infinite pool of hats and I got all confused. |
Author: | tj86430 [ Thu May 02, 2013 1:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
jlaire wrote: |
Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu May 02, 2013 2:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Hat problem |
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