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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #81 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:25 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Invasion time kiddies. His move at 1 was weird. I don't know why he wants a fight there but okay.

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #82 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Man, I've had a terrible few days, especially today, and should probably come back to this some other time, but this looks kinda sente and then we'll see if I can kill White. If not, the game's probably not looking so good, so it'll be fun to try.
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #83 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pretty much sente and makes him thicker. White 4 probably looks crazy to some of you right? :P

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #84 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, this is fun.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 d . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 c . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X e . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What nasty tricks does he have up his sleeve?
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #85 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Hmm, never seen this response before. Time to read!

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #86 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Hmmm, I resign!

That'll teach me to play a couple of moves without doing any reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm68 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . b . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X a X X X X 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O 4 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because :w70: and :w74: are sente against the corner, I can't see any way of keeping your eyespace down. I had a few nice ideas I thought, but none of them seem to work - you either kill me in the corner, make 2 eyes, or escape - there seems little chance in preventing you from making another eye if you escape, particularly as I have the "a" -> "b" cut to worry about.

A nice little tesuji that :)
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #87 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:26 pm 
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!!!!!!!

........

???????

Umm....okay? I haven't played any moves yet?

This has happened to me 3 times in Malkovich games! :P I just magically make my opponent lose all resolve.

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #88 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:30 pm 
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yithril wrote:
!!!!!!!

........

???????

Umm....okay? I haven't played any moves yet?

This has happened to me 3 times in Malkovich games! :P I just magically make my opponent lose all resolve.


Hehehe, sorry, I'm more than happy discussing some lines with you in this corner, but if you _do_ live, I either invade unreasonably on the left side and rip you off, or alternatively I'm far too far behind, no?
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #89 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Well yeah I mean if I live here then it's your top against my left and you'd have to do something, but I honestly don't think Black has lost.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyways, since it's over, I'll just discuss my thought process. I don't like 1 because of bad aji at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O 4 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So to me, extending along the side from the outside is not that great unless my reading is off. I figured my left was equal to your top so the right was your advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 a . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X 2 5 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was mainly thinking about this and trying to escape. You're thick though, so maybe 1 and 3 are too deep. I'm not sure. Maybe I should start off with 3. 3 could be played at A too.

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #90 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . 1 O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My defense earlier was mistaken too I think. I didn't play 1 because I didn't like the bad aji at A, but that might not be a big deal if I jump in the center. So keeping Black split is better.

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #91 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O b . . . . O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought 1 was kind of weird and was wondering why you didn't lightly reduce me at a. since you didn't turn at b your base is like not really existent here so I just thought taking control of the center keeps White in check. My being weak on the bottom is an asset to you. stuff like b becomes dangerous.

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #92 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Interesting game, thanks. Topazg,
topazg wrote:
Hmmm, I resign!
Too early indeed. :) A little bird told me if :black: attaches at C11... :)

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #93 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:24 am 
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yithril wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O b . . . . O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought 1 was kind of weird and was wondering why you didn't lightly reduce me at a. since you didn't turn at b your base is like not really existent here so I just thought taking control of the center keeps White in check. My being weak on the bottom is an asset to you. stuff like b becomes dangerous.


Yeah, this is interesting. I actually rejected this because it seemed a bit directionless, but considering that only a few moves later I was really wanting to reduce White's left, and considering the purpose of leaning against a group with a move like :b1: is designed normally to gain strength to attack in the other direction, "a" starts to make a lot more sense than I gave it credit for.

I'm slightly of the opinion that securing in the top right at the end of the joseki should have been a lower left approach, but it also felt very honte, so I'd love a professional opinion on whether or not it was the right timing to complete that corner joseki.

@Ed: Yeah, I'd looked very hard at the attachment, and if I was going to continue there, I'd probably play that as a starter before deciding whether or not to extricate my earlier contact mistake. If White hanes on top it certainly looks like there's a lot of useful aji to play with, and if White hanes underneath I perhaps can start using the other stone effectively.

Either way, a combination of frustration at my miscalulation with F8, the successful White invasion, and a very difficult week made me feel that enough was enough. I'm not too unhappy with the majority of the game, and indeed I didn't feel like Black was doing too badly until the lower side went a bit pear-shaped, but I think my honest chances of winning from here are very slim, and I want yithril to be able to focus fully against magicwand ;)
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